r/Teenager_Polls • u/Esteban83550 • 23d ago
Political Poll A Federal Europe?
Do you like the idea of a federal Europe? having some areas of sovereignty like the Army, a substantial budget, an elected president and government and many more
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u/el_crimson_magistrat 23d ago
I wish this was sorted by EU and non-EU
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u/Esteban83550 23d ago
I thought about that but I preferred offering nuanced answers, I will probably do it another time I'm curious too
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u/Street-Mix-801 23d ago
European Federation my beloved 🥹
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u/tris123pis m-18 Wolverine 23d ago
lets hope it gets here soon enough
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u/TrainPatient1289 23d ago
We need a stronger EU, with more countries, particularly Iceland, Norway and UK.
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u/TheSpeakingRock 23d ago edited 22d ago
Norway sadly will never join btw it's just too inconvenient for them, same thing with Switzerland
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u/Tommuli Old 22d ago
I would love to see a tier system for integration.
Where the central integral part of the EU is fully federated and the further you go from that in values/economy/etc the less integrated to the system you are and the less say you have.
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
Wait. Am I reading this correctly? This heavily sounds like you just want to force the countries "less integrated" into the EU laws and give them no say.
Probably not what you meant, but that sounds a bit UdSSR.
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u/TheSpeakingRock 23d ago
Absolutely, if we Europeans want to stay relevant we NEED to federalise, right now we can't compete with USA and China and we are completely dependent on them.
(Dependent on USA for sure idk about China tho)
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u/Unl3a5h3r 22d ago
Unfortunately a lot of former European brands are already Chinese owned. So we are already pretty dependent on china.
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u/Helios-Jollywolf 22d ago
Yeah, so germany can fuck the rest of us over some more with their idiotic ideas... fuck that
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u/TheSpeakingRock 22d ago
That's why I would prefer a direct democracy instead of what we have now, I also dislike Von Der Leyen
https://giphy.com/gifs/wclcaMcmaFz4Nf4rSF•
u/Helios-Jollywolf 22d ago
And id prefer to stay seperate since the EU is already doing a bad enough job, the last thing i want is to give them more power
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u/nokrzy 18M 23d ago
Civil war speedrun. Haven’t we learned anything from Yugoslavia or Soviet union? At least in Yugoslavia they were speaking similar languages, imagine what would happen with even more ethnicities and languages
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u/TheSpeakingRock 23d ago
The major difference would be the presence of democracy. (You know, the USSR and Yugoslavia weren't that democratic, and their populations didn't really want to live under dictatorships.)
As of right now, the EU is mostly a representative democracy, which I personally dislike. So, I would hope that, in the case of a European federation, the form of democracy would change from representative to direct.•
u/Esteban83550 23d ago
that's your opinion
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u/Dkiprochazka 23d ago
Mine and many others too. And I don't see how could it go differently.
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u/Esteban83550 23d ago
many people think that of course but I strongly believe it will be radically different
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u/Dkiprochazka 23d ago
How so? History has shown us that every country covering more ethnicities will eventually collapse. Thinks for example how many empires historically existed and now there's literally 0.. and more, like Czechislovakia, Austrian Hungarian empire, Yugoslavia, or for example Yemen, which hasn't collapsed yet, but is stuck in one of the most deadly civil wars today.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
brazil, india, the usa, Switzerland, early germany, the uk. Just to name a few where this doesn't hold true.
The key part in all of them is that they are democracies.
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u/Esteban83550 23d ago
Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, India are pretty successful, they have their downsides but they're pretty good, we're also in a proto federal stage with a common money, parliament, citizenship, borders, commercial policy, anthem, flag, a market, a chart of rights, a motto and much more
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u/Helios-Jollywolf 22d ago
Neither switzerland nor belgium are melting pots, nor are those illegals the germans made them take melting
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
Switzerland is quite literally composed of germans, french and italians in various amounts. Its THE melting pot with three official languages and everything
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u/Dkiprochazka 22d ago
Those are different though, because the countries I listed were created by unification, while the ones you mentioned were (with the exception of Belgium) created the opposite way - by separation (from an empire). Canada and India from the British empire and Switzerland from the Holy Roman empire. Also, India has ethnic clashes. Also, in Canada, Switzerland, Belgium the people don't mind living together while in the EU there are countries that definitely wouldn't want to unite with eachother even as a federation.
To your second point, yes, you are right, and that already is pushing it because euroscepticism has been rising for some time now (sure it's a source from 2023 but still relevant). I mean, ever since 2014, not only we haven't had any new EU members but one actually even left.
And yeah, I agree that some of the things in EU need to reform, but then why not just improve the EU policies more properly? That's a way less ambitious goal than uniting the EU into a federal country.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
both of those examples were specialist dictatorships instead of democratic nations
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u/Tay_Hlebko 17NB 23d ago
It's pretty much already federal, since EU laws can override a country's constitution. Which means that the EU actually possesses sovereignty rather than the member states because the EU is the highest authority.
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u/Eternal_Superyid 23d ago
Some countries still have an opt in, while others dont. So youre very close to correct.
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u/Tay_Hlebko 17NB 23d ago edited 23d ago
Can you elaborate? I've only heard of opting in and out for the Schengen area. To my knowledge,
EU laws are supreme in all full member states.•
u/Eternal_Superyid 23d ago
Im from denmark, and our constitution overrules eu law. This means that our King can say yes or no to any eu regulation.
He has not said no to anything yet(to my knowledge), but he can. If eu removed that right of his, denmark would have to rewrite our constitution..
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u/Whole-Dot2435 22d ago
since EU laws can override a country's constitution
???????????? I am pretty sure that is false. The EU has some requirements on how a country's constitution should be before joining, but I never heard of EU laws bring able to override a country's constitution. That may be true for some normal laws but not the constitution
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u/Tay_Hlebko 17NB 22d ago
Primacy of European Union law - Wikipedia
The primacy of European Union law (sometimes referred to as supremacy or precedence of European law\1])) is a legal principle of rule according to higher law establishing precedence of European Union law over conflicting national laws of EU member states.
The principle was derived from an interpretation of the European Court of Justice, which ruled that European law has priority over any contravening national law, including the constitution of a member state itself.\2])\3])\4])
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u/Whole-Dot2435 22d ago
Yeah... Though it is not really enforceable...
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u/Tay_Hlebko 17NB 22d ago
It is. Article 7 and Article 258. And these are frequently used.
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u/Whole-Dot2435 22d ago
Yeah, but an EU member state can ignore those penalties without any really major consequences. And Article 7 is hard to use because it needs a unanimous consent among all the other member states of the EU
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u/Professional-Log-108 22d ago
Here in Austria, our constitution is split into basic principles and other constitutional law. EU can NOT change the basic principles, but it can change other constitutional laws
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
it doesn't handle diplomatic matters and has no real enforcement mechanism. Its more a confederation currently
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u/Eternal_Superyid 23d ago
Absolutely not. As a citizen of a member of the EU, i hope it burns and crashes.
A military alliance i can allow, but the power that Brussels holds over my country, without my vote, is undemocratic and not acceptable.
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u/Esteban83550 23d ago
you elect the parliament that elects the president of the commission so it's democratic even though I would prefer electing the president of the commission by universal suffrage
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u/FabianButHere MtF 23d ago
You elect a guy who elects... I know that from a big place in the West, and we know how they're doing.
In Germany, we're currently have a chancellor with less than 20% approvement rates in the general public. But we don't vote the chancellor. The majority in parliament does. And they'd lose their power if they actually forced him to step down, so they won't do that.
Now imagine that, but for a power hungry person now ruling over the entire EU.
Please stop normalising so extremely indirect democracy. It just opens more doors for bribes and lobbyism.
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u/Alblaka 22d ago
Would you support EU federalization if it were to include a reform into an as-Direct-as-pragmatically-feasible Democracy? Even Germany is slowly (VERY slowly) getting it's digital shit together, so using digitalization to further direct democracies concepts is slowly coming into sight.
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u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago
No, because a state that big cannot pass legislation that reasonably makes sense for all of its 450 million citizens. Too many value, culture and everyday life differences.
The EUs countries are not close enough for a federation. E.g. Bulgaria isn't even close enough for being in the EU at all in my opinion, but hey.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
thats kinda why its a federal state, you know, with admisntrative layers
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
But why make a federation out of it instead of keeping independent if they're this different?? There's no advantage.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
united foreign policy lets us actually act on the global state without being pushed around by the superpowers, a united finacial market lets us invest i to our own companies better helping our economy greatly, a united armed forces helps us safe cost while at the same time being more effective and a united border policy shares the vurden of the external border among all members allowing us to defend it better.
A united police force helps us prosecute criminals across internal borders and broad united traffic rules and a proper economy ministry helps us standardize procedures and make cross eu investment more profitable, appealing and fair.
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
Actually no, I don't want more police. I don't see why people want a more authoritarian state. It's fine as it is, if not even too authoritarian already.
The army point just doesn't make sense, Germany is full of warmongering politicians and shoving all its money to Israel and Ukraine, Hungary is pro-russia, France actively supports Palestine's sovereignty while many other EU nations don't. We fight different wars, we have different issues.
Our market is already united. Thanks EU, you made monopolies stronger instead of punishing them like you were supposed to. But my local businesses neither wants nor needs an EU-wide market. Only huge, morally despicable companies do. And yes, we may all use the Euro, but that doesn't mean we have the same economic conditions.
Taxes differ vastly by country, because society and society's needs differ. And that's good. Because it's like the people in that area need it. A huge government apparatus would just be even more wasteful with taxes, most of them probably going to buerocracy.
The buying power, work culture, and average pay heavily differs. Because that's how those countries live. The societies are split in some areas, and that's a fact. But that doesn't cause issues, and so it doesn't need to be fixed.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
Its not more police, its police that can act across mational borders to arrest people committing crimes. Something the eu currently struggles with.
Germany is the furthest from a warmonger, and supporting Ukraine is supporting free democracy in europe and defending a nation that has been attacked by an imperialist authoritarian state. You as a anarchist should support thier protection no?
Europe doesn't agree on all matters of foreign policy, this makes us devided and unable to act on any of them. It should be a majority vote on who and what we act upon, just like it is in most nations nowadays.
Our goods market is united, not our financial market and thats important for big AND small buisnesses.
And the eu has fought plenty of monopolies over the years, foreign and domestic. And your small local shop absolutely cares about the united market if they realize or not, unless your a fan if giving the various nation states extra taxes in the form of tarrifs for almost every product you buy.
Who said anything about the same economic conditions? Again, federation..
Same with taxes, why would the eu interfere with local taxes? States in federations usually levy thier own taxes separate of.the federal government. Which in the case of the eu would get the money it needs to operate from the states not directly through taxation.
Work culture, pay and buying power diffres heavily between villages and cities as well, yet there are few issues, why would there be otherwise?
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u/No-Coast1408 22d ago
No Federal Europe without protection of special rights for outermost regions. 😡
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u/Esteban83550 22d ago
so after 3h we've got these results: among active members (52.9% YES, 32.9% NO) among all members (61.6% YES, 25.5% NO)
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u/Professional-Log-108 22d ago
First order of business should be reforming the EU to create a directly elected EU president. After that, we can talk about an EU army, and see where things go from there
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
Eh, id rather make the president (and commission) have less power and abolish the council. Replacing it with prooer ministries and an eu run by Parlament.
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u/Consistent_Ad5250 22d ago
Eu is destroying national identity fuck eu
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
how exactly? It seems more like your blaming the eu for things the internet does
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u/FabianButHere MtF 23d ago edited 21d ago
God forbid.
The EU can barely sort itself out right now. And you can't homogenise all European countries into a single thing. Different cultures, different needs, different values. Don't let us lose culture and be like the US, please.
Edit: Adding my arguments here.
Bulgaria, Cyprus, Germany, Spain and Slovakia. Those states would all be part of the EU federation. Now tell me how you would write a piece of law, that ranges beyond standardisation and diplomacy (the EU's only job), and would work for these four nations. Four nations which have no shared culture and exactly nothing that holds them together. Except for the fact that they're in the EU - a union for tasks of standardisation and diplomacy. But standardisation and diplomacy isn't everyday life. You need individual choices close to the population for that.
Ughh but that's why it's a *federation** *.
But then why even create it?? The goal of creating a higher layer of administration is to form standardised rules across a larger area. But we've found out the EU can't do that because of cultural, economical and more differences. So the only thing the EU can still do is diplomacy and a bit of standardisation for stuff like infrastructure. But that's already what it's doing! All you'd be thus doing, making an EU federation, is building buerocratic hurdles and giving up your nation's sovereignty.
But no one will make the EU as such a federation. That'd be stupid, sure, but not that harmful. No. The people who are for a EU federation, and especially bad actors on the left and right* extremes, want a stronger EU. One with more control. That means, your nation is losing the power it once had, and thus your vote for your nation's government (the one that focusses on your life and your issues) matters less, because it's controlled by the EU government from the top down, which will have reach into areas they have no clue how to legislate, because they differ too heavily between Spain, Germany, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Slovakia.
I really don't see any advantage in an EU federation. You can gladly try and prove me wrong, though.
I don't get while people who don't feel in control of their politics (as a German, who can't do anything about our chancellor with under 20% approval rates, bevause only his party (which in turn would be losing power) can start a vote of no-confidence - many people want a EU federation here) don't try to strengthen the layers of politics close to them. Those are the ones that can actually help you and your life.
Communal politics should be stronger. It gives the people more power. They're organising labor unions, critical infrastructure and more.
And a huge state of 80 million people, with a chancellor who doesn't know a thing about our lives, comes along and tells people how much to work and how to live and that we're all lazy and that we should come to work ill because we're such a bad population. Why does it have that power?
If a chancellor of 80 million already can be so distant from reality, why the heck would you want someone who is even further from those people to rule over 450 million.
* While they (as extreme nationalists) would of course be against a big EU, they'd take the chance as soon as the EU federation is established to try and seize power (as populists).
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u/TheSpeakingRock 23d ago
That's why it would be a federation, and how does being in a federation with other countries make you lose your culture ?
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u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago
UdSSR was a federation too. They did their best to homogenise.
The EU will do the same. And even if not, you can't create supreme laws for all those countries at once and have them make sense for the people of all countries at once.
I don't even think most member states in the EU can do that within their own country, that's why I definitely think states should be way, way smaller (or not exist at all, but sadly anarchy is but an utopia).
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u/TheSpeakingRock 22d ago
USSR was a dictatorship, they didn't do their best to "homogenise" they did their best ethnically cleanse all minorities.
The EU would be a democracy and member states would willingly join the federation not like the USSR which was russian imperialism.States should be way smaller?? Why?? If people are willing to live together in the same nation / state , if they all share the same values, cultures or there is just something that unites them I don't see why they should have a state of certain dimensions if they are willing to live together in a "big" state
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u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago
The larger a state, the less tailored are its laws to its citizens, and the more impossible it becomes to create laws that reasonably work for all citizens.
The EU would be a democracy, sure, but, since laws cannot be made on such a large scale to fit to its citizens, and because a large, powerful EU is wanted by those in power, the only thing left to change is the people. Homogenisation is the only solution, if you want to keep your power, large state and laws.
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u/TheSpeakingRock 22d ago
That's your opinion?
The entire point of a federation is to give more power to the people living in those lands rather than the central government, and even so, every state has other regions and every region has provinces, it's basic knowledge.
It's like saying that the us is too big to work well so it needs to split up.
Homogenisation is not needed if the people aren't forced to unite but rather it's the people who WANT to unite.
Obviously if you are an imperialistic shithole you will ethnically cleanse the populations in your federation since they don't want to be in said federation.
The EU federation would be different because it's the people who want to unite.•
u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago
Huh? Obviously in individual nations the people have more control than in a federation with those nations subordinate to a higher federation government. A federation is only an improvement if a nation is broken up into federative circuits, not if it's done the other way around.
A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart at the end (Yugoslavia, for example).
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
another dictatorship, do you have examples that aren't dictatorships?
Cause from ym perspective it worked wonderful for many nations, brazil, the us, india, the uk, early germany
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
Why am I defending myself, by the way, if there is not a single point for an European federation? Read my updated comment, please. Not gonna repeat myself.
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u/TheSpeakingRock 21d ago
Can you name a federation that made different nations/populations join WILLINGLY, not under any dictatorship and that as you said collapsed because "it forced different cultures together"?
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
No.
A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart.
Still stands.
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u/TheSpeakingRock 21d ago
That's not a fact, it's your opinion.
European nations share a somewhat macro culture (which is literally the reason why Europe is considered a continent), they share history and obviously also political interests, you point is it wouldn't last but it doesn't make much sense since it's the will of the people to unite→ More replies (0)•
u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
UdSSR was a dictatorship and in practice not a federation. More a collection of vassal states under russia.
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
And, because of the differences of the nations of the EU, the EU federation will be forced to either fall apart or employ similar practices of homogenisation. It eill probably fall apart instead, but look at polls all over Europe (surge in extreme left and extreme right parties), and the chance a bad actor will homogenise instead is high. I'm not gonna say that for a third time though.
Why would you join so highly independent and split apart states together into a federation? Germany has nothing to do with Bulgaria has nothing to do with Cyprus has nothing to do with Croatia has nothing to do with Spain. The only common factor, which is the EU's purpose, are some small parts of politics. However, the EU cannot make regulation (as a federation would have to) about taxes, everyday living, and a social system, because they differ so, so heavily from state to state.
Meaning, yes you could join all states into a federation which has the only goal to do a small amount of diplomatic and standardisation things, but by that your country giving up parts of its sovereignty to the EU, which, since it is a federation, would have more rights than just standardisation and diplomacy, which it shouldn't have. Because it doesn't make sense for it to have that.
You're just giving up power, for no real reason. A state is not just defined by its politics. And just as you can't make Canada and Russia into one nation because you're feeling like it, you can't do that to the EU, because the nations are too different.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
Hamburg had little in common with Munich, Frankfurt little with Berlin, hessen little with Schleswig. Yet they united to become one nation under one rule for protection, influence and cause they grew closer to one people over the years of confederation.
Just look at this sub, national borders dont deivide us here, if i talk to a bulgarian, a frenchmen or a pole they are all brothers and sisters of mine. That cultures and borders devide us and make us too different to coexist is an illusion born in nationalism and nothing more.
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u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago
But they had history. And they were at least fairly close, both geographically and, by being fairly open to outsiders ("immigrants") for kingdoms, had a steady cultural exchange.
The reason they wanted stability, though, was a result of the inherent war that emerges with power hungry kingdoms.
National borders don't divide us in certain exchanges. But as soon as I'm talking about work culture, or the economy, they do. We can exchange, yes, but we couldn't suddenly live under the same conditions. Very recent example I personally realised: I always felt like everything West of Poland was fairly "westernised" and similar. My dad moved to Portugal this summer, and I can tell you, no it's not.
The average pay, while around 4k in Germany, is 1.5k. Yes, stuff is cheaper, but the buying power is on average 40% lower. The work ethics here are totally different. Germany works way more. Portugal has stricter company hierarchies. Taxes differ completely.
The societies have nothing to do with each other. Totally different priorities and "typical lives".
And now that's two very developed, culturally and historically rather close countries.
It's small differences, but that's stuff I noticed within a week. Now a year of living here will probably show even more.
Laws need to be fit to their people. How can a country of 450 million people effectively make laws that fit for all of them. They can't, "that's wHY it'S A FedERaTioN", but then why give up power to a federation in the first place?? I want more power close to me. I want strengthed communal politics. I want that I can influence what happens to me. Not for it to be abstracted after even more buerocratic and political layers, that allow for even more populism and for the less politically interested people to have even less of a clue what's going on, and, at the end, make them not care about politics, which undermines the principle of a democracy.
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u/Reality-Straight 21d ago
And europe doesn't? The various nationstaes have incredible amounts of history with each other, faster modes of transportation mean that i am in todays time easier in barcelona than someone from munich would be in berlin in 1830. And immigration between the various german states was more controlled than it is between european states today. And thats not even mentioning the internet.
And just cause we have lived in peace longer doesn't mean that others dont wish to strike at as as we are divide like the german states of old. The bear and Panda sit at our door while the eagle wishes us to be under his boot, reliant on him and only him.
Work culture and the economy divide people inside nations just as well, acting like any nation or culture is unified in what they want for the economy is ridiculous. Details can be handled by the nations, only very broad things need to be handled like the eu, if anything thats the main part the eu already acts as a federation, its the one part that doesn't necessarily need more integration beyond standardizing some beurocratic processes.
The average pay in Brandenburg is far less than that in Bavaria, and both are different from Hessen or Niedersachsen. Being one nation has however allowed the east the be the fastest growing and most developed part of the former eastern block far surpassing other nations in it in most categories.
And how is Portugal closer culturally and historically to germany than say poland, greece or bulgaria?
Hell, peolle are vastly different between northa nd south germans as well, from culture to arguably language and work ethic and social norms.
Not all laws will be on the eu level, and no matter how much fun you make of "But thats what a federation is for" it doesn't stop it from being true as that is EXACTLY what a federation is for.
For things that need to be handled on a european level to be handled there and things that need to be local to be handled locally.
Germany is a common example but germany is, for a federation, very centralized into the National government with it being a federation more for administrative reasons than otherwise. This is absolutely not the only way to do federations though,and hasn't even always been the case for germany.
Federations can become more and less centralized over time depending on the needs of the federation.
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u/Esteban83550 23d ago
Switzerland is a federal system that never erased french, German, Italian, Romansh language or the cultures and many more
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u/Alblaka 22d ago
I second the 'let's not become like the US' part. But arguing that all federalizations must inevitably end up as a homogenized US2.0 is not a coherent take, imo.
Why not do a EU federation that learns from and avoids US mistakes?
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u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago
Because already they're falling into US pitfalls, in my opinion.
Already they're including member states that have no connections to the other EU states, already they're trying to make certain laws that are a one-size-fits-all for 450 million people, and that's just not possible. Hell, I don't even think it's possible for states of 80 million people (Germany, huge east/west divide).
Maybe this is my very blindsided anarchist view, but I just don't think states can make proper laws for areas that big.
And with every large federation comes homogenisation, historically, sadly.
Also, the EU for whatever reason sucks at making direct democracies. And please don't layer even more agencies and steps to voting and buerocracy over this mess.
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