r/Teenager_Polls 23d ago

Political Poll A Federal Europe?

Do you like the idea of a federal Europe? having some areas of sovereignty like the Army, a substantial budget, an elected president and government and many more

765 votes, 16d ago
373 Yes Absolutely
139 Yes partially
68 Not sure
44 No partially
141 Absolutely against
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u/FabianButHere MtF 23d ago edited 21d ago

God forbid.

The EU can barely sort itself out right now. And you can't homogenise all European countries into a single thing. Different cultures, different needs, different values. Don't let us lose culture and be like the US, please.

Edit: Adding my arguments here.

Bulgaria, Cyprus, Germany, Spain and Slovakia. Those states would all be part of the EU federation. Now tell me how you would write a piece of law, that ranges beyond standardisation and diplomacy (the EU's only job), and would work for these four nations. Four nations which have no shared culture and exactly nothing that holds them together. Except for the fact that they're in the EU - a union for tasks of standardisation and diplomacy. But standardisation and diplomacy isn't everyday life. You need individual choices close to the population for that.

Ughh but that's why it's a *federation** *.

But then why even create it?? The goal of creating a higher layer of administration is to form standardised rules across a larger area. But we've found out the EU can't do that because of cultural, economical and more differences. So the only thing the EU can still do is diplomacy and a bit of standardisation for stuff like infrastructure. But that's already what it's doing! All you'd be thus doing, making an EU federation, is building buerocratic hurdles and giving up your nation's sovereignty.

But no one will make the EU as such a federation. That'd be stupid, sure, but not that harmful. No. The people who are for a EU federation, and especially bad actors on the left and right* extremes, want a stronger EU. One with more control. That means, your nation is losing the power it once had, and thus your vote for your nation's government (the one that focusses on your life and your issues) matters less, because it's controlled by the EU government from the top down, which will have reach into areas they have no clue how to legislate, because they differ too heavily between Spain, Germany, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Slovakia.

I really don't see any advantage in an EU federation. You can gladly try and prove me wrong, though.

I don't get while people who don't feel in control of their politics (as a German, who can't do anything about our chancellor with under 20% approval rates, bevause only his party (which in turn would be losing power) can start a vote of no-confidence - many people want a EU federation here) don't try to strengthen the layers of politics close to them. Those are the ones that can actually help you and your life.

Communal politics should be stronger. It gives the people more power. They're organising labor unions, critical infrastructure and more.

And a huge state of 80 million people, with a chancellor who doesn't know a thing about our lives, comes along and tells people how much to work and how to live and that we're all lazy and that we should come to work ill because we're such a bad population. Why does it have that power?

If a chancellor of 80 million already can be so distant from reality, why the heck would you want someone who is even further from those people to rule over 450 million.

* While they (as extreme nationalists) would of course be against a big EU, they'd take the chance as soon as the EU federation is established to try and seize power (as populists).

u/TheSpeakingRock 23d ago

That's why it would be a federation, and how does being in a federation with other countries make you lose your culture ?

u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago

UdSSR was a federation too. They did their best to homogenise.

The EU will do the same. And even if not, you can't create supreme laws for all those countries at once and have them make sense for the people of all countries at once.

I don't even think most member states in the EU can do that within their own country, that's why I definitely think states should be way, way smaller (or not exist at all, but sadly anarchy is but an utopia).

u/TheSpeakingRock 22d ago

USSR was a dictatorship, they didn't do their best to "homogenise" they did their best ethnically cleanse all minorities.
The EU would be a democracy and member states would willingly join the federation not like the USSR which was russian imperialism.

States should be way smaller?? Why?? If people are willing to live together in the same nation / state , if they all share the same values, cultures or there is just something that unites them I don't see why they should have a state of certain dimensions if they are willing to live together in a "big" state

u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago

The larger a state, the less tailored are its laws to its citizens, and the more impossible it becomes to create laws that reasonably work for all citizens.

The EU would be a democracy, sure, but, since laws cannot be made on such a large scale to fit to its citizens, and because a large, powerful EU is wanted by those in power, the only thing left to change is the people. Homogenisation is the only solution, if you want to keep your power, large state and laws.

u/TheSpeakingRock 22d ago

That's your opinion?
The entire point of a federation is to give more power to the people living in those lands rather than the central government, and even so, every state has other regions and every region has provinces, it's basic knowledge.
It's like saying that the us is too big to work well so it needs to split up.
Homogenisation is not needed if the people aren't forced to unite but rather it's the people who WANT to unite.
Obviously if you are an imperialistic shithole you will ethnically cleanse the populations in your federation since they don't want to be in said federation.
The EU federation would be different because it's the people who want to unite.

u/FabianButHere MtF 22d ago

Huh? Obviously in individual nations the people have more control than in a federation with those nations subordinate to a higher federation government. A federation is only an improvement if a nation is broken up into federative circuits, not if it's done the other way around.

A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart at the end (Yugoslavia, for example).

u/Reality-Straight 21d ago

another dictatorship, do you have examples that aren't dictatorships?

Cause from ym perspective it worked wonderful for many nations, brazil, the us, india, the uk, early germany

u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago

Why am I defending myself, by the way, if there is not a single point for an European federation? Read my updated comment, please. Not gonna repeat myself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Teenager_Polls/s/OFDxqY5yJO

u/Reality-Straight 21d ago

i answered this question in another comment

u/TheSpeakingRock 21d ago

Can you name a federation that made different nations/populations join WILLINGLY, not under any dictatorship and that as you said collapsed because "it forced different cultures together"?

u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago

No.

A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart.

Still stands.

u/TheSpeakingRock 21d ago

That's not a fact, it's your opinion.
European nations share a somewhat macro culture (which is literally the reason why Europe is considered a continent), they share history and obviously also political interests, you point is it wouldn't last but it doesn't make much sense since it's the will of the people to unite

u/FabianButHere MtF 21d ago

I'm not saying the country will break apart, it will be forced to stay together. The people will remain split, and that will make any legislation bad for at least 30%.

Any group of people that big cannot be all content with the same set of legislature. Not even states of 80 or 60 million people can do that. Unless the European federation's goal is to homogenise their peoples. That's why it doesn't make sense.

Will there be a huge civil war and everything break? No. But there's no reason for doing it in the first place. It will just, in the long run, make people either unhappy or oppressed and thus unhappy.

You can disagree and think that somehow the enormous differences will still allow for any kind of effective ruling, but I don't believe that. States (that being, the entity with the monopoly on violence) need to be small to be actually close and fit to their peoples.

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