A Federal Europe?

[u/Esteban83550]

Do you like the idea of a federal Europe? having some areas of sovereignty like the Army, a substantial budget, an elected president and government and many more

765 votes, 16d ago

373 Yes Absolutely

139 Yes partially

68 Not sure

44 No partially

141 Absolutely against

[u/FabianButHere]

God forbid.

The EU can barely sort itself out right now. And you can't homogenise all European countries into a single thing. Different cultures, different needs, different values. Don't let us lose culture and be like the US, please.

Edit: Adding my arguments here.

Bulgaria, Cyprus, Germany, Spain and Slovakia. Those states would all be part of the EU federation. Now tell me how you would write a piece of law, that ranges beyond standardisation and diplomacy (the EU's only job), and would work for these four nations. Four nations which have no shared culture and exactly nothing that holds them together. Except for the fact that they're in the EU - a union for tasks of standardisation and diplomacy. But standardisation and diplomacy isn't everyday life. You need individual choices close to the population for that.

Ughh but that's why it's a *federation** *.

But then why even create it?? The goal of creating a higher layer of administration is to form standardised rules across a larger area. But we've found out the EU can't do that because of cultural, economical and more differences. So the only thing the EU can still do is diplomacy and a bit of standardisation for stuff like infrastructure. But that's already what it's doing! All you'd be thus doing, making an EU federation, is building buerocratic hurdles and giving up your nation's sovereignty.

But no one will make the EU as such a federation. That'd be stupid, sure, but not that harmful. No. The people who are for a EU federation, and especially bad actors on the left and right* extremes, want a stronger EU. One with more control. That means, your nation is losing the power it once had, and thus your vote for your nation's government (the one that focusses on your life and your issues) matters less, because it's controlled by the EU government from the top down, which will have reach into areas they have no clue how to legislate, because they differ too heavily between Spain, Germany, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Slovakia.

I really don't see any advantage in an EU federation. You can gladly try and prove me wrong, though.

I don't get while people who don't feel in control of their politics (as a German, who can't do anything about our chancellor with under 20% approval rates, bevause only his party (which in turn would be losing power) can start a vote of no-confidence - many people want a EU federation here) don't try to strengthen the layers of politics close to them. Those are the ones that can actually help you and your life.

Communal politics should be stronger. It gives the people more power. They're organising labor unions, critical infrastructure and more.

And a huge state of 80 million people, with a chancellor who doesn't know a thing about our lives, comes along and tells people how much to work and how to live and that we're all lazy and that we should come to work ill because we're such a bad population. Why does it have that power?

If a chancellor of 80 million already can be so distant from reality, why the heck would you want someone who is even further from those people to rule over 450 million.

* While they (as extreme nationalists) would of course be against a big EU, they'd take the chance as soon as the EU federation is established to try and seize power (as populists).

[u/TheSpeakingRock → u/FabianButHere]

That's why it would be a federation, and how does being in a federation with other countries make you lose your culture ?

[u/FabianButHere → u/TheSpeakingRock]

UdSSR was a federation too. They did their best to homogenise.

The EU will do the same. And even if not, you can't create supreme laws for all those countries at once and have them make sense for the people of all countries at once.

I don't even think most member states in the EU can do that within their own country, that's why I definitely think states should be way, way smaller (or not exist at all, but sadly anarchy is but an utopia).

[u/TheSpeakingRock → u/FabianButHere]

USSR was a dictatorship, they didn't do their best to "homogenise" they did their best ethnically cleanse all minorities.
The EU would be a democracy and member states would willingly join the federation not like the USSR which was russian imperialism.

States should be way smaller?? Why?? If people are willing to live together in the same nation / state , if they all share the same values, cultures or there is just something that unites them I don't see why they should have a state of certain dimensions if they are willing to live together in a "big" state

[u/FabianButHere → u/TheSpeakingRock]

The larger a state, the less tailored are its laws to its citizens, and the more impossible it becomes to create laws that reasonably work for all citizens.

The EU would be a democracy, sure, but, since laws cannot be made on such a large scale to fit to its citizens, and because a large, powerful EU is wanted by those in power, the only thing left to change is the people. Homogenisation is the only solution, if you want to keep your power, large state and laws.

[u/TheSpeakingRock → u/FabianButHere]

That's your opinion?
The entire point of a federation is to give more power to the people living in those lands rather than the central government, and even so, every state has other regions and every region has provinces, it's basic knowledge.
It's like saying that the us is too big to work well so it needs to split up.
Homogenisation is not needed if the people aren't forced to unite but rather it's the people who WANT to unite.
Obviously if you are an imperialistic shithole you will ethnically cleanse the populations in your federation since they don't want to be in said federation.
The EU federation would be different because it's the people who want to unite.

[u/FabianButHere → u/TheSpeakingRock]

Huh? Obviously in individual nations the people have more control than in a federation with those nations subordinate to a higher federation government. A federation is only an improvement if a nation is broken up into federative circuits, not if it's done the other way around.

A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart at the end (Yugoslavia, for example).

[u/Reality-Straight → u/FabianButHere]

another dictatorship, do you have examples that aren't dictatorships?

Cause from ym perspective it worked wonderful for many nations, brazil, the us, india, the uk, early germany

[u/FabianButHere → u/Reality-Straight]

Why am I defending myself, by the way, if there is not a single point for an European federation? Read my updated comment, please. Not gonna repeat myself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Teenager_Polls/s/OFDxqY5yJO

[u/Reality-Straight → u/FabianButHere]

i answered this question in another comment

[u/TheSpeakingRock → u/FabianButHere]

Can you name a federation that made different nations/populations join WILLINGLY, not under any dictatorship and that as you said collapsed because "it forced different cultures together"?

[u/FabianButHere → u/TheSpeakingRock]

No.

A country needs something holding it together. For the EU, the only thing is politics. People want a political join. But you can't force cultures and societies together like that. They'll always remain heavily split, and break apart.

Still stands.

[u/TheSpeakingRock → u/FabianButHere]

That's not a fact, it's your opinion.
European nations share a somewhat macro culture (which is literally the reason why Europe is considered a continent), they share history and obviously also political interests, you point is it wouldn't last but it doesn't make much sense since it's the will of the people to unite

[u/Reality-Straight → u/FabianButHere]

UdSSR was a dictatorship and in practice not a federation. More a collection of vassal states under russia.

[u/FabianButHere → u/Reality-Straight]

And, because of the differences of the nations of the EU, the EU federation will be forced to either fall apart or employ similar practices of homogenisation. It eill probably fall apart instead, but look at polls all over Europe (surge in extreme left and extreme right parties), and the chance a bad actor will homogenise instead is high. I'm not gonna say that for a third time though.

Why would you join so highly independent and split apart states together into a federation? Germany has nothing to do with Bulgaria has nothing to do with Cyprus has nothing to do with Croatia has nothing to do with Spain. The only common factor, which is the EU's purpose, are some small parts of politics. However, the EU cannot make regulation (as a federation would have to) about taxes, everyday living, and a social system, because they differ so, so heavily from state to state.

Meaning, yes you could join all states into a federation which has the only goal to do a small amount of diplomatic and standardisation things, but by that your country giving up parts of its sovereignty to the EU, which, since it is a federation, would have more rights than just standardisation and diplomacy, which it shouldn't have. Because it doesn't make sense for it to have that.

You're just giving up power, for no real reason. A state is not just defined by its politics. And just as you can't make Canada and Russia into one nation because you're feeling like it, you can't do that to the EU, because the nations are too different.

[u/Reality-Straight → u/FabianButHere]

Hamburg had little in common with Munich, Frankfurt little with Berlin, hessen little with Schleswig. Yet they united to become one nation under one rule for protection, influence and cause they grew closer to one people over the years of confederation.

Just look at this sub, national borders dont deivide us here, if i talk to a bulgarian, a frenchmen or a pole they are all brothers and sisters of mine. That cultures and borders devide us and make us too different to coexist is an illusion born in nationalism and nothing more.

[u/FabianButHere → u/Reality-Straight]

But they had history. And they were at least fairly close, both geographically and, by being fairly open to outsiders ("immigrants") for kingdoms, had a steady cultural exchange.

The reason they wanted stability, though, was a result of the inherent war that emerges with power hungry kingdoms.

National borders don't divide us in certain exchanges. But as soon as I'm talking about work culture, or the economy, they do. We can exchange, yes, but we couldn't suddenly live under the same conditions. Very recent example I personally realised: I always felt like everything West of Poland was fairly "westernised" and similar. My dad moved to Portugal this summer, and I can tell you, no it's not.

The average pay, while around 4k in Germany, is 1.5k. Yes, stuff is cheaper, but the buying power is on average 40% lower. The work ethics here are totally different. Germany works way more. Portugal has stricter company hierarchies. Taxes differ completely.

The societies have nothing to do with each other. Totally different priorities and "typical lives".

And now that's two very developed, culturally and historically rather close countries.

It's small differences, but that's stuff I noticed within a week. Now a year of living here will probably show even more.

Laws need to be fit to their people. How can a country of 450 million people effectively make laws that fit for all of them. They can't, "that's wHY it'S A FedERaTioN", but then why give up power to a federation in the first place?? I want more power close to me. I want strengthed communal politics. I want that I can influence what happens to me. Not for it to be abstracted after even more buerocratic and political layers, that allow for even more populism and for the less politically interested people to have even less of a clue what's going on, and, at the end, make them not care about politics, which undermines the principle of a democracy.

[u/Reality-Straight → u/FabianButHere]

And europe doesn't? The various nationstaes have incredible amounts of history with each other, faster modes of transportation mean that i am in todays time easier in barcelona than someone from munich would be in berlin in 1830. And immigration between the various german states was more controlled than it is between european states today. And thats not even mentioning the internet.

And just cause we have lived in peace longer doesn't mean that others dont wish to strike at as as we are divide like the german states of old. The bear and Panda sit at our door while the eagle wishes us to be under his boot, reliant on him and only him.

Work culture and the economy divide people inside nations just as well, acting like any nation or culture is unified in what they want for the economy is ridiculous. Details can be handled by the nations, only very broad things need to be handled like the eu, if anything thats the main part the eu already acts as a federation, its the one part that doesn't necessarily need more integration beyond standardizing some beurocratic processes.

The average pay in Brandenburg is far less than that in Bavaria, and both are different from Hessen or Niedersachsen. Being one nation has however allowed the east the be the fastest growing and most developed part of the former eastern block far surpassing other nations in it in most categories.

And how is Portugal closer culturally and historically to germany than say poland, greece or bulgaria?

Hell, peolle are vastly different between northa nd south germans as well, from culture to arguably language and work ethic and social norms.

Not all laws will be on the eu level, and no matter how much fun you make of "But thats what a federation is for" it doesn't stop it from being true as that is EXACTLY what a federation is for.

For things that need to be handled on a european level to be handled there and things that need to be local to be handled locally.

Germany is a common example but germany is, for a federation, very centralized into the National government with it being a federation more for administrative reasons than otherwise. This is absolutely not the only way to do federations though,and hasn't even always been the case for germany.

Federations can become more and less centralized over time depending on the needs of the federation.

[u/Esteban83550 → u/FabianButHere]

Switzerland is a federal system that never erased french, German, Italian, Romansh language or the cultures and many more

[u/Alblaka → u/FabianButHere]

I second the 'let's not become like the US' part. But arguing that all federalizations must inevitably end up as a homogenized US2.0 is not a coherent take, imo.

Why not do a EU federation that learns from and avoids US mistakes?

[u/FabianButHere → u/Alblaka]

Because already they're falling into US pitfalls, in my opinion.

Already they're including member states that have no connections to the other EU states, already they're trying to make certain laws that are a one-size-fits-all for 450 million people, and that's just not possible. Hell, I don't even think it's possible for states of 80 million people (Germany, huge east/west divide).

Maybe this is my very blindsided anarchist view, but I just don't think states can make proper laws for areas that big.

And with every large federation comes homogenisation, historically, sadly.

Also, the EU for whatever reason sucks at making direct democracies. And please don't layer even more agencies and steps to voting and buerocracy over this mess.