r/Israel_Palestine • u/FederalFriend576 • Jun 23 '22
BDS Movement Disavows "Mapping Project"
We've had quite a few discussions of the "Mapping Project," a project put together by a group called BDS Boston. Part of this involved making a list of known Jewish targets and where to find them in a time when anti-Semitic violence is running rampant. Naturally, the pro-Palestinian users on the subreddit including /u/s_y_s_t_e_m_i_c_, /u/working_class_shill, /u/izpo, /u/Pakka-Makka2 and of course /u/kylebisme went on the defensive:
Even when prominent Democrats like Elizabeth Warren criticized the project, they continued to shill for it. They argued it's not anti-Semitism but "a call for accountability" and it doesn't put anybody's safety at risk.
As such I'm curious to hear their thoughts now that the Palestinian BDS National Committee has come out against the Mapping Project. You can read here on their website:
The Palestinian BDS National Committee, the broadest coalition leading the global BDS movement for Palestinian rights, has no connection to and does not endorse the Mapping Project in Boston, Massachusetts.
Endorsement of this project by any group affiliated with the BDS movement conflicts with this affiliation.
They said the same on Twitter. National Committee General Coordinator Mahmoud Nawajaa ordered BDS Boston to take down the map targeting Jewish institutions or else “remove the BDS acronym from your name:"He went on to say:
In his letter to BDS Boston, Nawajaa wrote that the committee has attempted to meet with them but hasn’t heard back, which is why he is sending the letter. Nawajaa wrote that the BDS National Committee has “deep concerns” over the Mapping Project because it “unstrategically targets and provides names and ‘physical addresses’’ of institutions and individuals, and promotes messaging that includes phrases such as ‘resistance in all its forms.’” “Promoting it by a group that is regarded as affiliated to the BDS movement inadvertently but gratuitously opens the door widely for the eager Israeli lobby to intensify to unprecedented levels its legal warfare (lawfare), smears and bullying against the movement, its activists and its support base, as we have seen over the past week,” he wrote. “This also opens up BDS Boston to potential infiltration, and puts you in Boston and us in Palestine and many others in the US and globally in direct danger of heightened persecution and repression.”
Nawajaa added that the BDS movement specifically calls for “peaceful forms of Palestinian popular resistance” and that BDS Boston’s message of “resistance in all its forms,” has “violated a key guideline of our movement.” “The association of the BDS name with such groups and activities hurts our entire movement and presents a substantial threat to our collective and individual safety,” he wrote.
Given that our local pro-Palestinians definitely came to the defense of the Mapping Project entirely of their own volition, and not because they perceived that to be the pro-Palestinian party line to which they are expected to adhere like good little shills, I eagerly await their criticisms of the BDS Movement and its representatives.
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u/7gsgts Jun 23 '22
Oh another post calling out redditors by name. Must be a new day.
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u/Bagdana philosopher 🗿 Jun 23 '22
It's a call for accountability!
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22
Here's a proper example of a call for accountability from 34 Israeli intelligence veterans:
The Palestinian population under military rule is completely exposed to espionage and surveillance by Israeli intelligence. While there are severe limitations on the surveillance of Israeli citizens, the Palestinians are not afforded this protection. There's no distinction between Palestinians who are, and are not, involved in violence. Information that is collected and stored harms innocent people. It is used for political persecution and to create divisions within Palestinian society by recruiting collaborators and driving parts of Palestinian society against itself. In many cases, intelligence prevents defendants from receiving a fair trial in military courts, as the evidence against them is not revealed. Intelligence allows for the continued control over millions of people through thorough and intrusive supervision and invasion of most areas of life. This does not allow for people to lead normal lives, and fuels more violence further distancing us from the end of the conflict.
And the mapping project is another such call for accountability in this ongoing apartheid.
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u/Bagdana philosopher 🗿 Jun 23 '22
whataboutism!
It's honestly quite liberating when pro-Palestinians go mask-off. If you seriously think mapping Jewish schools with a tenuous connection to Israel beyond beyond being Jewish is an important campaign, I'm not sure what to tell you. You think these Jewish schools are complicit and accountable for what you call "apartheid"? What happened to making a distinction about Jews and Israeli policy? Unfortunately this distinction is being wiped out and weaponised by people like you, in a clear act of antisemitsm
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Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22
There were even organisations like Yachad on the mapping project.
It's like the creators didn't even do anything more than the most superficial research. Anyone who knows anything about Yachad would know that they sympathise with a much the palestinian situation, but nope, not according to the mapping project.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
Yachad New England is the regional branch of Yachad, a national organization for Jewish individuals with disabilities and their families. Yachad encourages the individuals it engages to attend a variant of “Birthright Israel” called “Israel Free Spirit,” which is specifically targeted toward individuals with disabilities. Per Israel Free Spirit’s website , "This journey offers a fabulous tour to Israel for young adults with disabilities. Through its dedicated and experienced staff and tour guides, great activities, and state-of-the-art specialized bus, the trip is designed for participants to have a comfortable and incredible journey." Yachad maintains partnerships with local Zionist organizations, including Combined Jewish Philanthropies, the Ruderman Family Foundation, and JewishBoston.
https://mapliberation.org/dev/map_js/?entities=Yachad%20New%20England
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Jun 24 '22
So it's different to the Yachad I'm familiar with.
Still not sure why a charity that supports disabled people has been targeted though. Fascinating that you think the fact they organise trips to Israel makes them some kind of colonial oppressor.
I really wouldn't be surprised to learn that bds would also target Yachad UK.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
You're fascinating yourself with your own imagination.
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Jun 24 '22
Mate, you're projecting like an IMAX again.
The difference is that I admitted my error. You've been proved incorrect a thousand times over the last few weeks yet somehow have refused to learn a thing.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
Again, that's just your overactive imagination, which is why you can't provide an example of what you claim.
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22 edited Jun 23 '22
If you seriously think mapping Jewish schools with a tenuous connection to Israel
I know better than to imagine that's anywhere close to accurate description of the mapping project. Elisabeth Warren is on that map for herself, and her along with others like her who support this ongoing apartheid don't like being held to account.
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u/ImNotDexterMorgan pro-peace 🌿 Jun 23 '22
When your views are too extreme for even the BDS movement, you should do some more soul searching
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22
I don't take advice from apartheid supporters.
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u/ImNotDexterMorgan pro-peace 🌿 Jun 23 '22
Phew, fortunately that's not what I am so you can take my advice!
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Jun 23 '22
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22
Should I like accuse you of molesting kittens or something, is that the level of discussion you want to have?
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Jun 24 '22
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
That's just your extremely disturbed imagination causing you to grossly misconstrue me.
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Jun 24 '22
I know better than to imagine that's anywhere close to accurate description of the mapping project.
So what were their Zionist connections? Why should a Jewish teen group be eliminated because it didn't ignore the existence of the country with 30% of the world's Jews.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
So what were their Zionist connections?
That's explained on the website for each group listed.
If you name the group you're alluding to, I'll copy and paste the answer to your question.
Why should a Jewish teen group be eliminated
How do you come up with such nonsense?
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u/Mindless-Pie2150 Jun 24 '22
If you name the group you're alluding to, I'll copy and paste the answer to your question.
That's precisely the problem. You like to copy and paste, but avoid any deeper thinking.
I'll save you the copy-paste step for the Harvard Semitic Museum/Harvard Center for Jewish Studies (https://mapliberation.org/plain/entities/HarvardSemiticMuseum-HarvardCenterforJewishStudies.html)
Harvard Semitic Museum and The Harvard Center for Jewish Studies attempt to provide scientific legitimacy to the mythological underpinnings of Zionism. The Harvard Semitic Museum, for example, features a "full-scale reproduction of a first millennium B.C. house from ancient Israel" in their first floor gallery. The Harvard Center for Jewish Studies (located within the Semitic Museum) includes fellowship programs with ties to Israeli universities, and also partners with on-campus Zionist organizations including Hillel and Chabad.
Archaeological projects connected to the Harvard Semitic Museum and the Harvard Center for Jewish Studies include excavations at Ashkelon, specifically excavations of "an ancient Philistine cemetery." As can be seen from a July 2019 press release shared by the museum along with other articles about these excavations posted on Harvard's museum website, Harvard researchers like David Reich have also been pushing the use of DNA analysis in archaeology to make arguments about the movement of peoples, origins, and race, a modern extension of the racist theorizing that has characterized western anthropology and archaeology from its beginnings. Every year, the Harvard Semitic Museum coordinates and sponsors the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon, led by Museum Director and Dorot Professor of the Archaeology of Israel Lawrence E. Stager. with Harvard faculty, staff, and students participating in this endeavor. [More on Harvard's connection to the Leon Levy expedition to Ashkelon here.] Adam Aja, assistant curator at the Harvard Museum of the Ancient Near East (housed within Harvard Semitic Museum), also participates in the excavations at Tel Shimron.
Showing a model of an ancient house is oppression?
"Harvard Semitic Museum and The Harvard Center for Jewish Studies attempt to provide scientific legitimacy to the mythological underpinnings of Zionism" sounds a lot denying the origins of Jews.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
Jewish schools with a tenuous connection to Israel
That's blatantly denying the extent of connection between the Harvard Semitic Museum/Harvard Center for Jewish Studies and Israel, as what you've quoted yourself clearly proves.
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Jun 24 '22
How do you come up with such nonsense?
Have you considered familiarizing yourself with your own source?
https://mapliberation.org/plain/entities/JewishTeenFoundationofGreaterBoston.html
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
be eliminated
How do you come up with such nonsense?
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Jun 24 '22
Our goal in pursuing this collective mapping was to reveal the local entities and networks that enact devastation, so we can dismantle them.
Are you capable of doing a modicum of actual research?
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u/7gsgts Jun 24 '22
Its targeted harrasment. Nobody on here owes you a thing. Who the fuck elected you gatekeeper?
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Jun 23 '22
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u/Mindless-Pie2150 Jun 24 '22
I don't like the way this sub is focusing on calling out individuals, no matter what side they're on.
I also see a difference between calling out individuals in posts and systemic blocking people they disagree with.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
I don't like the way this sub is focusing on calling out individuals, no matter what side they're on.
If that were true then surely you wouldn't engage in nonsense like this:
That's precisely the problem. You like to copy and paste, but avoid any deeper thinking.
I'm not the one severely lacking in thoughtfulness here.
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u/7gsgts Jun 24 '22
What do you mean im ok with it?
Who are you to put words in my mouth? You dont speak for me.
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Jun 24 '22
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence.
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Jun 24 '22
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
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Jun 24 '22
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Jun 24 '22
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
So, since I've yet to see any evidence that you have any understanding of how to tie your own shoes, that's evidence that you don't understand how to tie your own shoes?
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Jun 24 '22
In terms of probability, yes. Did you read the article and do you understand conditional probability and Bayes' theorem? I know you don't understand logic, so this article might be hard for you since there is basic propositional logic in a couple of lines.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
I know you don't understand logic
That's rich coming from someone who suggests they likely don't even understand something so simple as how to tie their own shoes.
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Jun 24 '22
Oh Kyle, I do, but I was explaining to you that this is how Bayes' theorem works. Meanwhile your ignorance of basic logic is already on display in the thread I linked. Be a little smarter.
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u/kylebisme Jun 25 '22 edited Jun 25 '22
Since I dug this up for /u/TheGhostofWillyWonka I figure I might as well share it with you too, as Carl Sagan explains:
appeal to ignorance—the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa (e.g., There is no compelling evidence that UFOs are not visiting the Earth; therefore UFOs exist—and there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. Or: There may be seventy kazillion other worlds, but not one is known to have the moral advancement of the Earth, so we're still central to the Universe.) This impatience with ambiguity can be criticized in the phrase: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Using the structure of Sagan's first example, your argument can be rephrased:
There is no compelling evidence that /u/7gsgts has any objection to situations "when Kyle calls out people or when systematic create an echo chamber," therefore 7gsgts must be "ok with it."
Surely, if you put your mind to it, you can come up with at least one possible explanation for the absence of evidence you cite which contradicts that conclusion, eh?
And Willy, can you fathom any such potential explanation yourself?
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Jun 25 '22
Kyle you clearly didn't learn anything from our discussion on Bayes' theorem (do you even know what it is without googling? It's incredibly basic probability). The situation as described doesn't contradict absence of evidence is evidence of absence. You and Sagan are both wrong about this, I'm not sure why you are holding him up as some paragon of truth. There have been many mathematicians over the years who were wrong about some things but right about others (though their errors usually didn't have proof behind them, just gut feelings or dislike of the result). Cantor was essentially shunned by much of mathematical community after his discovery of different cardinalities, and this includes prominent mathematicians like Kronecker and Gauss (see here for more). Spamming this quote doesn't make you or him right.
Did you even read the article I linked you? Can you tell me where you think it is incorrect?
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u/kylebisme Jun 25 '22
Kyle you clearly didn't learn anything from our discussion
To the contrary, I gained considerable insight into the mental gymnastics you'll engage in to defend a flagrant appeal to ignorance.
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Jun 25 '22
So did you read the article?
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u/kylebisme Jun 25 '22
You still haven't answered my questions, but expect me to answer yours?
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Jun 25 '22
Yeah I thought so, it's clear you haven't.
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u/kylebisme Jun 25 '22
Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence.
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Jun 25 '22 edited Jun 25 '22
Yes it is, please learn basic math skills as well as basic a basic understanding of logic. You are so confident, I'm sure you can point to me where the error in Yud's proof is. Please point it out, make me look like a fool. I'd welcome it.
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u/7gsgts Jun 25 '22
You don't need to dig quotes up from Gauss to pretend I said something.
Just ask me.
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Jun 25 '22
Not really digging since I have knowledge of math history. Are you an alt of u/kylebisme?That's the only explanation I can think of. I'm not the one who initially linked to your profile kiddo, that was Kyle.
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u/kylebisme Jun 25 '22
Are you an alt of u/kylebisme?That's the only explanation I can think of.
Quite the one-track mind, eh?
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22
I eagerly await their criticisms of the BDS Movement and its representatives.
Well that's quite avaricious of you.
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u/FederalFriend576 Jun 23 '22
You’re welcome to think so. Can I take your usual whataboutery and verbal vomit as a refusal to disagree with your handlers in the BDS Movement, or would you like to say something on topic. No need to respond if you would prefer to keep your foot in your mouth.
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u/kylebisme Jun 23 '22
You're the one engaging in verbal vomit.
I have no handlers.
And I've already expressed my disagreement:
As for your last comment:
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u/GottaSingSing Jun 24 '22
"And the mapping project is another such call for accountability in this ongoing apartheid"
That's a straight up endorsement, liar.
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u/HallowedAntiquity Jun 24 '22
Add this to the pile of examples of kyles dishonesty.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
I was accused of "refusal to disagree with your handlers in the BDS Movement," and you imagine that quote of me expressing my disagreement with them on this matter is the dishonest part in this?
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
That's straight up misconstruing what I said.
My disagreement on this matter is with the BDS Movement, the ones you falsely accused me of being handled by.
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u/GottaSingSing Jun 24 '22
Ah, so the BDS movement is wrong about this? You're sinking ever lower into the sewer, Kyle.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22
Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.
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u/GottaSingSing Jun 24 '22
You mean a "compliment" but it's not your fault, hate often warps the brain and makes it less intelligent.
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u/kylebisme Jun 24 '22
Dyslexia warps my vision.
You're the one blinded by hatred here.
But thanks for pointing out my mistake. Fixed now.
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u/GottaSingSing Jun 24 '22
I'm not the one defending Mondoweiss' anti-Semitic hate, as you have on multiple occasions. Your projection isn't going to work. You're so hateful even BDS isn't supporting you. If that's not a wakeup call, nothing is.
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u/AmputatorBot Jun 23 '22
It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of concerns over privacy and the Open Web.
Maybe check out the canonical page instead: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdsmovement/status/1539688106009534465
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u/Veyron2000 Jun 29 '22
Clearly this mapping project was a badly conceived and executed idea (mostly because it was a political disaster - any criticism of Israel in the US is risky because the right is quick to deliberately label it antisemitism, so this provided perfect fodder for the anti-Palestinian lobbyists and pro-Israel hate groups).
However I think a large part of the problem is that lots of American jewish organisations that mostly focus on other things, including cultural centers and charities, also have ties to and are supporting of Zionism and Israel. The same is true of lots of non-jewish companies and non-profits. So while most pro-Zionist American jews think these ties are entirely innocuous "what does it matter if we advocate for Israel and Zionism?" they are not innocuous to anyone who thinks that the Zionist policies of the Israeli government are deeply morally wrong and harm Palestinian human rights.
From the perspective of the Boston BDS this is a bit like a Russian-American charity for, say, the disabled, also having ties to Russian nationalist organisations which support the invasion of Ukraine. Or a Russian symphony orchestra working with the Kremlin. Its still a bit misguided to list all organisations with even the remotest connection, just as I think boycotting a Russian orchestra to support Ukraine is misguided.
Posting a map with actual addresses was also a very bad idea, as it served little purpose but to inflame everyone's paranoia and seem directly threatening.It is however a useful exercise to list (if not map addresses) organisations which directly lobby for, support and raise funds for Israel, Zionism, and thus work against Palestinians and Palestinian rights.This is because like most special interest and lobby groups they mostly work behind the scenes in the shadows by talking to politicians and making strategic campaign donations.
More transparency in all these kind of activities is essential, including in the case of pro-Israel / anti-Palestinian groups (partly because the American pro-Israel lobby is one of the largest and most powerful American special interest lobbies along with the gun-rights groups and corporate lobbies and because it is tied to the support of a foreign government).
The thing that I find most disturbing in all this is actually the shear strength and vindictiveness of the pro-Israel / anti-Palestinian climate in America. Even though BDS is at its core merely a far more mild version of the economic sanctions US politicians are happy imposing in a wide range of other countries, for the same international law violations, allies of the Israeli government in the US have succeeded in smearing it as evil. Hence progressive groups and BDS organisations have to tread so carefully to avoid being attacked by Fox News or Republican lawmakers.
You even saw this with Ben and Jerry's ice cream: when the jewish founders of Ben and Jerry's decided to stop selling ice cream in the illegal West Bank settlements (thus merely obeying international law) which are not in Israel, Israeli leaders went ballistic, calling it "a boycott of Israel" and "terrorism" and "antisemitism". They quickly got their allies in the US to pressure Unilever to force the founders to reverse course, threatening them with lawsuits under unconstitutional "anti-BDS" legislation (even though again this did not boycott Israel at all) and now appear to have succeeded.
Even some groups in the US who think of themselves as "progressive" and "liberal" Zionists - so still supporting the whole Palestinian disspossession and subjugation project - get attacked, and are too scared to stand up to the Israel lobby, ironically mostly made of evangelical Christians.
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u/FederalFriend576 Jun 29 '22
Jewish organizations have the right to be Zionist, the same way Arab and Muslim organizations have the right to be pro-Palestinian.
You don't get to target them for harassment and violence just because you disagree with them. Deal with it.
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u/Veyron2000 Jun 30 '22
Jewish organizations have the right to be Zionist
Jewish organizations have the right to support anything they want, from Israeli human rights abuses, to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, to North Korean death camps.
That doesn’t mean that other people don’t also have a right to call them out on it, which is very much not “harassment and violence” (a deliberate lie from you here).
Deal with it.
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u/FederalFriend576 Jun 30 '22
Apparently the FBI and the larger BDS organization disagree.
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u/Veyron2000 Jul 01 '22
No, they said it was misguided, innapropriate and risked providing fodder for anti-Palestinian hate groups.
And note that calling out organisations which support Israel's human rights abuses is not the same as listing addresses either, as I addressed in my comment.
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u/amazingjoe76 Jun 30 '22
The way I understand the BDS message is that they disavow the website. Not because the rhetoric combined with personal and organization addresses might result in increased risk of harm (or fear of harm) for members of the Jewish community but because that rhetoric because it implies violence (which BDS does not engage in) could regardless result in non-violent measures being taken related to BDS that makes it more difficult for them to accomplish their mission.
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u/RB_Kehlani 🇮🇱 Jun 24 '22
When even the extremists think you’re too extreme, you’re doing something wrong
Also “mapping project” manages to be so incredibly innocuous as a euphemism that it’s actually disturbing to me