r/IndianHistory Jul 31 '26

Announcement Any Conspiratorial Posts WILL be removed and the users banned

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We just saw a thread today that went against all that this sub aims to be as a forum for well sourced discussions on various topics relating to Indian history. Posting such content WILL result in an insta ban no questions asked.


r/IndianHistory 6d ago

Question 📅 Monthly Feedback & Announcements Post

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Hi everyone!

Feel free to chat, leave suggestions, or recommendations for AMAs. The mod team is always working on adding resources in the wiki and we encourage you to take a look! Also check out the link to our Discord server.

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r/IndianHistory 6h ago

Later Medieval 1200–1526 CE A notable colonial painting depicting the arrival of Vasco Da Gama in the Zamorin's court. The Portuguese painter Veloso Salgado depicts the Zamorin Raja and his ministers in awe of Da Gama and his crew. In reality, the latter were mistaken to be impoverished pirates due to their inferior gifts.

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When Vasco Da Gama and his crew of ex-convicts from Lisbon finally reached the Malabar coast in the monsoon of 1498, they had suffered a great deal of hardships. Within moments of their sighting, the coast was blocked off by the Zamorin's officials. The Portuguese were taken to the Rajah's palace in Calicut, where amongst a great deal of assembled nobles, Da Gama presented himself before an aging man reclined on a couch. After the ceremonial greetings, the Portuguese were asked by the agents of the Zamorin (and the cautious Arab merchants at court) as to what gifts the former would be presenting to the latter on behalf of the Portuguese King.

Da Gama proudly stated "twelve pieces of striped cloth, four scarlet hoods, six hats, four strings of coral, a case of six wash-hand basins, a case of sugar, two casks of oil, and two of honey".

While this greatly surprised the Zamorin and his court, the Arab merchants quickly retorted that nothing less than Gold or Silver was accepted in Calicut. They also accused Da Gama and his men of being ordinary pirates rather than the ambassadors of the Portuguese King. While this greatly arose the suspicions of the Zamorin (who asked Da Gama to present official letters from Portugal), a faction at court also came to the conclusion that Portugal must have been indeed a poor nation if it could only muster such items as gifts to a foreign King.

Exactly 400 years later, in 1898, Portuguese painter Jose Veloso Salgado painted the above painting of the historic meeting between Da Gama and the Zamorin. In this new colonial re-interpretation, the Zamorin and his ministers are in awe of Da Gama, who is depicted as a towering figure with noble intentions. In the bottom right corner, a Portuguese man is showing offering an expensive vase as gift to the Zamorin. Today, this has become the most popular depiction of this historic event.

Sources:

Wikimedia commons

https://manuspillai.com/2024/10/23/when-gifts-werent-an-innocent-show-of-affection/

https://www.thecollector.com/vasco-da-gama-explorer-adventurer/


r/IndianHistory 2h ago

Question How did I go so long without hearing about Roberto de Nobili?

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Image credit: Screenshot from God, Guns and Missionaries by Manu S. Pillai.

I recently finished reading God, Guns and Missionaries by Manu S. Pillai and one person in the book really caught my attention.

Roberto de Nobili.

And honestly, I was surprised that I had never heard of him before. For anyone who does not know who he was, de Nobili was an Italian Jesuit missionary who came to India in the early 1600s and worked mainly around Madurai. What made him different was the way he approached missionary work.

The missionaries who came before him were very closely associated with the Portuguese and with European culture. This obviously did not help when they were trying to convince Indians, particularly the upper castes, to accept a religion that was so strongly associated with foreigners.

De Nobili basically tried to change that entire approach.

He dressed like an Indian ascetic, learned Tamil and Sanskrit, studied Indian religious and philosophical texts and tried to present himself more like a religious scholar than a European missionary.

He also tried to separate Christianity from the Portuguese identity that had become attached to it.

What really caught my attention was that this was not just some random experiment by one missionary. From what Pillai describes later in the book, this approach became part of a much bigger discussion about how Christianity could be presented to Indian society.

There were also serious disagreements among the missionaries themselves about how far they should go with this kind of cultural adaptation.

And apparently, some of the approaches that became important in later missionary work in India can be traced back to this whole experiment.

Maybe I am overestimating his importance because I have only encountered him through one book.

Maybe historians consider him important but he just does not make it into popular discussions.

Or maybe there are dozens of other people like him who had a significant impact on how religion, culture and society developed in India but are barely known outside academic circles.

I found the whole thing pretty fascinating, so I thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

Also, this is my first Reddit post, so I figured I might as well start with something that genuinely made me stop while reading and think, how the hell have I never heard about this guy?

Would be interested to know what people here think about de Nobili and how significant he actually was.


r/IndianHistory 3h ago

Artifacts Kurkihar Bronzes (9th–12th Century CE) – Masterpieces of the Pala Dynasty

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The Kurkihar bronzes, also known as the Kurkihar hoard, constitute one of the most important discoveries of early medieval Indian metal sculpture. Found in 1930 at Kurkihar in present-day Gaya district, Bihar, the hoard is generally described as comprising 226 bronze images and related objects.

The discovery took place in the remains of an ancient Buddhist monastic complex, where the sculptures had been buried beneath the main mound. Smaller images were reportedly placed inside earthen vessels, while larger sculptures were deposited alongside them.


r/IndianHistory 1h ago

Question I need information about the Kashmiri caste ‘Dukroo’, its origins, history, and basically everything about it.

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Same as the title.


r/IndianHistory 6h ago

Colonial 1757–1947 CE Who Financed the East India Company?

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Who funded the East India company and the British conquest of India?

In the video in the link William Dalrymple points to an uncomfortable and often overlooked part of the story: the East India Company’s military machine was Indian and Indian capital also helped finance it.

Where is this documented?


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Architecture Rumi Darwaza: The 240-Year-Old Gateway That Defines Nawabi

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Rumi Darwaza is one of the most famous landmarks of Lucknow. It was built around 1784 during the rule of Nawab Asaf-ud-Daula, when Awadh was facing a severe famine.

The Nawab started major construction projects to provide work for people during the famine. Rumi Darwaza and Bara Imambara were built during this period.

Standing nearly 60 feet tall, the gateway is known for its beautiful Awadhi architecture. Its design is believed to be inspired by the architecture of Constantinople.

Today, Rumi Darwaza remains a strong symbol of Lucknow’s Nawabi history and the culture of Awadh.


r/IndianHistory 23h ago

Question How could such technology have existed back then to carve out the massive Kailasa Temple at Ellora from a single rock and that too by carving downward

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r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Early Modern 1526–1757 CE Rarest bird in Indian history! ( Now Extinct )

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Credit:- FACPOLIC ( Youtube )


r/IndianHistory 15h ago

Question The Bengali woman as Durga: is there a historical connection?

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Something I’ve been thinking about as Durga Puja approaches:
There is a particular irony or perhaps poetry in Bengal’s relationship with Durga.
She isn’t only worshipped as a mother. She is Mahishasuramardini - the woman who takes up weapons and defeats Mahishasura herself. And yet, in Bengali culture, she is also Uma, the daughter who leaves her husband’s home and returns to her mother’s home every autumn.
That image of the daughter coming home became deeply embedded in Bengali culture. But alongside this softer, domestic image, Bengal also has a rather remarkable history of women who refused to remain confined to the roles society had prescribed for them.
Think of Pritilata Waddedar, who in 1932 led an armed attack on the Pahartali European Club in Chittagong. Or Bina Das, who attempted to shoot the Governor of Bengal at the University of Calcutta’s convocation that same year. Or Kalpana Dutta, who became involved in the Chittagong revolutionary movement. These weren’t simply women supporting men from the sidelines - some actively demanded the right to participate in the dangerous, physical side of the resistance.
And this is where I find the symbolism of Durga interesting.
It’s tempting to say that these women were simply “living as Durga”, but history is obviously more complicated than that. Women in Bengal still faced child marriage, restrictions on education, purdah and strong expectations around domesticity. Even revolutionary organisations could be reluctant to see women as equal combatants. Yet some women pushed through those boundaries anyway.
So perhaps the interesting question is -

Did the cultural imagination of a woman who could be simultaneously a mother, daughter and warrior give Bengali women a powerful language through which to imagine their own agency?
Or are we simply looking backwards and giving a modern feminist interpretation to a much older religious tradition?
I’d genuinely love to hear what people who know Bengali social/religious history think.


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question What happened to Helena Maurya after Chandragupta's death?

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I was discussing the Mauryan Empire with my grandfather. I knew that Seleucus had married one of his daughters to Chandragupta, but I didn't know anything about her later life.

My grandfather is a history major and told me that many books he read in the 60's and 70's claimed that Helena had a son with Chandragupta. However, the details of her life are unknown. When I tried looking for information online, I found very little, and some sources even claim that she had no children.

Is there any reliable historical information about what happened to her after Chandragupta's death? Did she have any children, and are there any primary sources that discuss her later life?

Any information or recommended sources would be appreciated. TIA!


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question What do you think is the most important Artefact that has been stolen from India and is very central to our heritage

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It's nearly impossible to bring back all the Artefacts that we have lost to Colonial Entities but what would that Artefact that you really wish must be brought to India


r/IndianHistory 12h ago

Colonial 1757–1947 CE From Telescope to Horoscope: Did Colonialism Change How India Thinks?

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r/IndianHistory 2d ago

Early Medieval 550–1200 CE The Simraungarh Pillar.

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The Simraungarh Pillar, located in the historical city of Simraungarh, the Capital of Karnatas of Mithila.

Reflecting the glorious and mighty Karnata dynasty who ruled the region of Mithila till its fall by the hands of Ghiyat al-Din Tughlaq in 1324 CE.

Credits — @videha_studio.


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Early Modern 1526–1757 CE Captain Inchbird's Embassy

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The Mumbai board now sat and discussed how to appease their new neighbours, and within days of the Vasai victory, an embassy led by Captain Inchbird and Gordon was given instructions and sent to meet Chimaji Appa and Chhatrapati Shahu. They dispatched Captain James Inchbird in the month of June 1739 to Vasai to meet Chimaji. The principal leaders had issued a strict warning to this emissary, to negotiate with complete amity, to remove any suspicion from his heart, and work towards increasing the trade opportunities.

https://ndhistories.wordpress.com/2023/12/24/captain-inchbirds-embassy/

Marathi Riyasat, G S Sardesai ISBN-10-8171856403, ISBN-13-‎978-8171856404.

The Era of Bajirao

Uday S Kulkarni

ISBN-10-8192108031

ISBN-13-978-8192108032.


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question What was Durdhara, Chandragupta Maurya’s wife, actually like?

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I’ve seen Durdhara portrayed in different ways in TV serials, and I’m curious about how much of those portrayals are actually based on historical sources.

What do we really know about Durdhara as a person? What was her personality, role, or relationship with Chandragupta Maurya likely to have been?

Was she actually similar to the way serials portray her, or have the makers largely fictionalised her character for the story?

I’d love to hear your opinions, especially from people who have read the historical/Jain sources about Chandragupta and Durdhara.

How do you think Durdhara was as a person, based on whatever historical evidence is available?


r/IndianHistory 2d ago

Intellectual History How Pūrva Mīmāṃsā's atheism worked, and how Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta later took it over

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In this post I will be discussing whether Pūrva Mīmāṃsā counts as atheist and how later traditions reinterpreted the anti-theological arguments to serve their own theological agenda.

Calling Pūrva Mīmāṃsā atheist needs a qualifier attached before it means anything useful, because Sanskrit does not have one word doing the job "god" does in English.

“God” is not a univocal term, as shown also by the fact that it translates different concepts in Sanskrit, from deva/devatā to īśvara and to paramātman or brahman. Furthermore, theism and atheism are not two mutually exclusive alternatives (there might be philosophical positions which neither advocate the belief in a personal God nor support an explicit denial of it). Last, and more intriguingly, belief in God does not need to be configured as belief in the existence of an external, subject-independent entity. Within the precincts of this article, I conventionally adopt the term “deity” to translate devatā; “god” to cover the semantic realm of a superhuman being who has much in common with human beings (not least that they are both, ontologically speaking, “substances”, dravya), and who is mostly the efficient cause of the universe, but not its creator ex nihilo; and “God” to denote a non-human being to whom one has a personal and devotional relationship, but who might have no ontological grounding at all. The second “god” is often referred to as īśvara, although one must be aware of the fact that the three levels I have distinguished here, and especially the second and the third, are not strictly and explicitly distinguished in the sources, which often incorporate aspects I have associated with other levels here (so that, for instance, a God is also referred to as “creator of the world” or as bearing a conch)

Most people assume an Indian philosophical school starts the way early Greek philosophy did, with questions about being and existence. Mīmāṃsā grew out of something narrower: exegesis, plain and simple on the problem of how to correctly read the ritual instructions in the Brāhmaṇa portions of the Veda. Jaimini's Mīmāṃsā Sūtra, likely the oldest surviving philosophical sūtra text in the tradition, comes directly out of that problem, usually dated somewhere around the second century BC, though nobody can pin it down much closer than that. Śabara's commentary followed a few centuries later (dates fuzzy again, somewhere in the third to fifth century AD), and Kumārila and Prabhākara picked it up from there around the seventh century. Eight or nine centuries of commentary, mostly spent on ritual grammar, before the tradition got anywhere near a real theory of what a Vedic sentence is telling you to do.

Mīmāṃsakas held that the entire point of a Vedic sentence, its artha, is something to be enacted, kārya or sādhya, never a fact being reported. Mention a deity in the dative case, an offering made "for Agni," and Mīmāṃsā treats the phrase as ritual grammar but as a subordinate to an injunction about what the sacrificer has to do, with no claim about Agni's existence smuggled in.

However, for Mīmāṃsā the main focus was not on metaphysics, but on the Brāhmaṇa portion of the Veda. Mīmāṃsakas looked at the Brāhmaṇas (and at all of the Vedas) as primarily prescriptive texts. Non- prescriptive passages of whatever nature were considered as subsidiary to the prescriptive ones. Accordingly, for Mīmāṃsakas the artha3 of Vedic sentences is something to be done (kārya or sādhya). This means that the Mīmāṃsā theory of meaning cannot be direct realist. Thus, an interpreter of Mīmāṃsā should be aware of the need to avoid his/her tendency to use direct realism when reading Mīmāṃsā texts. The Veda also has a specific epistemic place and role, according to Mīmāṃsā thought. In fact, the Veda is the only source of transcendental knowledge accepted by Mīmāṃsakas, and in all other fields of knowledge Mīmāṃsā authors stick to a strict empiricism. In Kumārila’s words: “Here like in any other case, Mīmāṃsakas do not accept anything else beyond what is commonly experienced”.4 It is perhaps noteworthy that this sentence is to be understood not in an ontological context, but rather in an epistemological one (discussing the epistemological value of the Buddha’s word). In other words, Mīmāṃsā authors aim to refrain from postulating unrequired concepts, but this does not mean that they naïvely accept reality as independent of the human beings perceiving it. Its existence independent of a knowing subject just lies beyond question, given that the focus is on the Veda and the Veda presupposes the existence of human beings carrying out the sacrifices it prescribes.

Call it an is-ought move if you like: Vedic language gets treated as prescriptive rather than descriptive, and once you've granted that, a deity's grammatical presence inside a formula stops counting as evidence for the deity's independent reality. Add the refusal to posit anything beyond what experience licenses, no god has ever been perceived, a bodiless god can't obviously create anything, an embodied one can't be worshipped in two places at once, and you land on straightforward atheism about devatās. This is the razor doing its work a good thousand years before Ockham put a Latin name on the same instinct.

The devatādhikaraṇa, the actual chapter on deities, builds a real argument against a real opponent to get there. The opponent's best shot is an analogy: you address a deity the way you'd address a guest, and a meal gets prepared for the guest's sake, so the guest matters more than the meal. A second version treats sacrifice as pūjā, worship, and worship is always subordinate to whoever's being worshipped, in ordinary experience anyway. Jaimini keeps the reply anchored to one point.

yajñakarma pradhānaṃ tad dhi codanābhūtaṃ tasya dravyeṣu saṃskāras tatprayuktas tadarthatvāt || 9.1.1 || devatā vā prayojayed atithivad bhojanasya tadarthatvāt || 6 || [...] tasmād yajñaprayojanam || 19 || The sacrificial action is the primary thing, because it has been brought into being by the injunctive word. Hence the preparation of its materials must be regarded as promoted by that [sacrifice], because they occur for its sake (PMS 9.1.1). [Obj.:] The deity should promote [the sacrifice], because s/he is like a guest, for whose sake a meal is prepared (9.1.6). [R:] [...] Therefore, the sacrifice is the promoter (9.1.19).

The sacrificial act is primary, because that's what the injunctive word actually establishes. Everything else the formula names, ritual substances, the deity, serves that act but the act doesn't serve them. Śabara pushes this from grammar into something closer to an empirical test. If a deity genuinely ate an offering the way a person eats food, the material offered should visibly shrink, and it doesn't. The obvious fallback, that a deity only takes the essence of the food the way a bee takes nectar, gets rejected on a nice technical ground: a bee's feeding is something you can actually watch happen. A deity's supposedly isn't, by anyone, ever. Across pages of this, against every Vedic line describing Indra with hands or a strong neck or reddish eyes, Śabara keeps coming back to the same two words.

By Kumārila's generation the target has climbed several rungs, from whether a ritual deity matters inside a sacrifice to whether a creator īśvara, the kind some Naiyāyikas were defending, governs the world at all. Kumārila answers with two arguments that don't depend on each other. First, economy, genuinely the same move Ockham gets credit for centuries later in a completely different tradition: entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, don't multiply entities beyond necessity. Karmic retribution among living beings is already fully explained by each being's own past actions.

kasyacid dhetumātratvaṃ yady adhiṣṭhātṛteṣyate | karmabhiḥ sarvajīvānāṃ tatsiddheḥ siddhasādhanam || ŚV, SĀP, 75 If you assume that to govern something means being its general cause, then you prove what is already established. For that (cause) is already established by the past karman of all beings.

If being a mere cause is taken to require a supervisor standing over it, positing that supervisor only proves what was already established without it. Kumārila names this fault directly, siddhasādhanam, proving what's already proven. Second, embodiment. Anything that acts on the world the way a potter shapes clay needs a body to act with, since inert matter doesn't just obey a disembodied will. But a body is a created, extended thing, which means it needs a prior cause of its own, and now you're stuck: either there's a creator behind the creator, or you need creation out of nothing, which Mīmāṃsā's empiricism was never going to swallow. Worth being precise about who's actually getting attacked here. It is not Viṣṇu, Śiva, and definitely an inactive brahman. A specific philosophical construction, the Nyāya-Vaiśeṣika creator god, and Buddhist philosophers like Dharmakīrti pick up this exact line of attack afterward against a target of their own.

Kumārila’s refusal of this kind of god deeply influenced the Buddhist discussion on the same topic (see Krasser 1999 for Kumārila’s influence on Dharmakīrti) in a way which became more and more philosophically engaged. The target of the criticism is a god/īśvara as part of the ontology of a certain school (specifically of Nyāya and of Nyāya-Vaiśeṣika).12 Kumārila (and Dharmakīrti) refutes the idea of using an īśvara as a solution to ontological or logical problems on the basis of the idea that S/He creates more difficulties than S/He can solve. For instance, karmic retribution does not need a divine Supervisor and the assumption of one is anti-economical

The turn comes when Vedānta shows up and "god" stops meaning an ordinary devatā at all. The role climbs to paramātman or brahman, and the old ritual deities get demoted to a merely everyday, transactional level of reality nobody has to take seriously in any final sense. Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta develops inside this shift, fusing more and more with Śrī Vaiṣṇavism, the devotional world of the Āḻvār poet saints plus the Pāñcarātra ritual manuals, so Viṣṇu supplies the devotional centre and brahman or paramātman supplies Vedānta's technical name for that same reality. After Rāmānuja the two are barely separable.

When Vedānta entered the philosophical scene, the situation changed and the role of “god” was primarily occupied by the paramātman or brahman, with lower deities being accepted only at a worldly (vyavahārika) level. Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta, by contrast, is a philosophical school which became more and more closely connected to the so-called Śrī Vaiṣṇavism. The latter is a general label used to group Vaiṣṇava beliefs which mostly circulated in and were elaborated on in South India, and which attributed a role also to Viṣṇu’s consort Śrī. On the one hand Śrī Vaiṣṇavism is linked with the devotional songs of the Āḷvārs and on the other with the Pāñcarātra Sacred Texts, which are kind of “manuals” for personal and temple-worship. Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta adds to those beliefs and practices a philosophical, specifically Vedānta, frame. Thus, whereas Śrī Vaiṣṇavism has Viṣṇu as its central focus, Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta rather discusses his philosophical counterpart, called brahman or paramātman. In post-Rāmānuja (traditional dates 1017-1137 AD) times the two traditions merge more and more, and theological topics (such as the relation between Viṣṇu and his consort Śrī, and that between Viṣṇu and his body) are dealt with from a philosophical perspective. Thus, theism (here understood only as the opposite of atheism, in the sense of “belief in God”) is a required presupposition of Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta. However, this does not necessarily imply the belief in a personal God, nor in a saving, caring one. As far as I am aware, the latter characteristics are altogether absent from Rāmānuja’s contributions to Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta stricto sensu (e.g. in his Śrī Bhāṣya, although they might be present in his devotional and Vaiṣṇava works).

What follows doesn't refute the devatādhikaraṇa so much as reinterpret what the chapter was ever trying to do. Yāmuna, then Rāmānuja, argue that Jaimini's apparent sidelining of deities was never a metaphysical denial to begin with. It targeted a specific practical worry: someone who hasn't studied the Upaniṣads yet might conclude ritual duty is pointless if everything ultimately runs on divine grace anyway, and just stop performing the rites their station requires.

aśrutavedāntānāṃ karmaṇy aśraddhā mā bhūd iti devatādhikaraṇe 'tivādāḥ kṛtāḥ

So that people who haven't heard the Vedānta wouldn't lose faith in ritual action, exaggerated statements were made in the chapter on deities. That's the whole move. The apparent downgrading of gods was deliberate overstatement, ativāda, meant to keep people faithfully performing their duties, not a claim anyone was ever supposed to take literally. Veda and Vedānta stop being rival voices and become, in Rāmānuja's own words, a single treatise. Veṅkaṭanātha takes this from pious gloss to full technical machinery. He wants to keep the entire Mīmāṃsā apparatus intact, and not out of sentiment either, its strict rules about valid evidence are exactly what let Vedānta exclude rivals like Buddhism from counting as authoritative at all, so he needs one carefully placed exception rather than a wholesale replacement. His lever is apūrva, the unseen causal residue Mīmāṃsā already needed to explain how today's ritual act produces a result received much later, since act and fruit are never simultaneous and the gap between them is never directly observed. Veṅkaṭanātha identifies this already-accepted, already-imperceptible apūrva with God being pleased by the sacrifice, reasoning that one person's inner intention is never perceptible to anyone else anyway, which is exactly the kind of imperceptibility Mīmāṃsā had already used to justify apūrva in the first place. It's an elegant piece of philosophical judo, honestly, he fills a slot the system had already left open, with a divine mental state where an anonymous causal residue used to sit. He runs the same trick elsewhere too. Created bodies need a cause, except God's, held to be eternal. Embodied beings can't directly perceive dharma, except God, whose perception answers to no such limit.

Thus, Veṅkaṭanātha had in front of him a hard task as he tried to reconcile Pūrva Mīmāṃsā and Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta on this issue.17 The fact that he managed to create a new synthesis is evidence of his genius as a systematiser, wherein the term “systematiser” does not entail a lower order of philosophising. On the contrary, Veṅkaṭanātha had to find a higher synthesis of contradictory positions, one which could still look acceptable to his Viśiṣṭādvaita fellows. Veṅkaṭanātha’s general strategy seems to be to accept the Mīmāṃsā approach (which is useful in order to keep Buddhist and other Sacred Texts out of the precinct of validity) while adding to it an exception, namely God. Thus, Veṅkaṭanātha agrees that bodies are created except for God’s body, which is nitya. 18 Similarly, direct perception cannot grasp dharma (so that it is impossible that the Buddha knew dharma) except for God’s perception. In fact, throughout SM ad PMS 1.1.4, Veṅkaṭanātha shares the Pūrva Mīmāṃsā arguments against the possibility of yogipratyakṣa, and only in the concluding verses does he, surprisingly, add that these arguments do not apply to God. “God” (referred to with the adjective aiśa in the verse) is thus clearly different from a devatābut also from the god Kumārila attacks, since He does not belong to the same categories human beings (puruṣa) belong to; He can have an eternal body, although eternal bodies are inconceivable for us, and can perceptually see dharma, although this is also a priori impossible for other sentient beings. In this way, Veṅkaṭanātha can avoid refuting the Mīmāṃsā stance, while embedding it in a larger frame where a God is indeed possible (this embedding strategy is most likely a distinguishing feature of Veṅkaṭanātha’s approach, see Freschi forthcoming[b]). The Vedānta school usually accept Pūrva Mīmāṃsā theories, but only within the empirical world (loka). Thus, one might think of Veṅkaṭanātha’s move as just part of his general strategy. However, he embraces even transempirical claims of the Pūrva Mīmāṃsā. Noteworthily, in the case of sacrifices, he makes use of the key Mīmāṃsā concept of apūrva, that is, the ‘unprecedented’, which cannot be known through any other means of knowledge

None of this went through quietly as Elisa Freschi's own conclusion flags real resistance from inside Śrī Vaiṣṇava circles, on top of the outside pushback from Mīmāṃsakas, and by Veṅkaṭanātha's own lifetime there probably weren't any living atheist Pūrva Mīmāṃsakas left to argue with directly anyway. What got carried forward was Mīmāṃsā's technical machinery of exegetical rules, stripped almost entirely of the anti-theological commitments that machinery was originally built to serve.

Genuinely curious what people who've read further into this think, does Veṅkaṭanātha's apūrva move read as a real philosophical continuation of Mīmāṃsā's own logic, or a strategic redeployment of that logic for reasons that are ultimately sectarian. Freschi seems content leaving both readings open. I'm not convinced the text forces a choice either.

Reference

Between Theism and Atheism: A Journey through Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta and Mīmāṃsā by Elisa Freschi (2015)


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Colonial 1757–1947 CE Gourds, Ghats, and Dak Bungalows: A Day on the Old Bombay-Poona Road

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adichshahane.substack.com
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After the Mumbai-Pune "Missing Link" tunnel opened earlier this year, it got me thinking about how people made this same journey in the 18th and 19th centuries, when getting from Bombay to Poona meant three to seven days on foot, on horseback, or by palanquin, crossing the Konkan's rivers and climbing the Bhor Ghat before any road or railway existed. The colonial-era postal department ran relays of bearers and built rest houses called dak bungalows along the route, since there was no other infrastructure to speak of. Where the road simply stopped at a flooded river, travelers and their baggage were floated across on rafts of dried calabash gourds (doodhi/दूधी), a technique documented up and down the subcontinent in one form or another (inflated animal skins served the same purpose further north). The Bishop of Calcutta, crossing the Bhor Ghat in 1825, wrote that the ascent was so steep even an empty palanquin could barely be forced up it (Heber, 1828). This piece gets into what that journey actually looked like day to day and the physical reality of moving people and goods across this terrain before anyone thought to tunnel straight through it.


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question Someone please explain the battle of ten kings to me (The one fought on the banks of river parushni).

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I am new to this and want to know more about this topic. I am really interested in it and would like to know more about it. I am interested in the battle and the events that took place before it and the events which occurred as a result of it. A detailed explanation would be highly appreciated, and I would be really grateful!


r/IndianHistory 2d ago

Classical 322 BCE–550 CE Did Marathi Emerge When Dravidian Speakers Shifted to Prakrit?

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Marathi is genealogically Indo-Aryan: most of its inherited vocabulary and morphology descend from Middle Indo-Aryan. At the same time, Marathi contains an old Dravidian substrate in its vocabulary, phonology, semantics and syntax.

Franklin Southworth argued that this substrate was not produced solely by borrowing between established languages. He proposed that many local Dravidian speakers adopted an Indo-Aryan Prakrit but retained much of their original grammatical structure. Their restructured Prakrit later contributed to the formation of Marathi.[1]

Southworth’s mode
Southworth proposed two interacting varieties:

Old Indo-Aryan → Maharashtrian Prakrit

Local Prakrit + local Dravidian languages → Maharashtrian Pidgin Prakrit

The first was associated with established Indo-Aryan speakers. The second developed among local populations learning Prakrit while continuing to use grammatical patterns from their original languages.

The two varieties later converged:

Maharashtrian Prakrit + restructured local Prakrit -> creolized Maharashtrian Prakrit → Marathi

Southworth called this “prior creolization.” Indira Junghare later described Marathi as a possible “quasi-creole”: a language with mainly Indo-Aryan vocabulary but extensive Dravidian structural influence.[1][2]

The older terms “pidgin” and “creole” are debatable. The same process can be described as language shift, substrate transfer, nativization and convergence.

Why this is not ordinary borrowing
Borrowing adds foreign words or constructions to an established language. Substrate transfer occurs when a population adopts another language but carries features of its former language into the new one.

Under Southworth’s model, local Dravidian speakers adopted Prakrit words and morphemes but often arranged them according to Dravidian grammatical patterns. Marathi therefore did not merely borrow some Dravidian words after it had formed. Dravidian-speaking populations may have helped shape Marathi during its formation.

Junghare argues that Marathi frequently uses inherited Indo-Aryan material inside Dravidian-patterned constructions. Formal Marathi often preserves more Indo-Aryan syntax, while colloquial Marathi shows more Dravidian-style structures.[2]

Tamil–Marathi grammatical correspondence a comparison
The grammatical parallels extend across several constructions. Both Tamil and Marathi place chains of genitive modifiers before the noun and use circumstantial postpositions after it. Their associative constructions combine a post-nominal collective marker with a locative form, while purposive expressions stack dative and purposive elements. Both languages can turn postpositional phrases into noun modifiers compare Tamil sārnta/-āna with Marathi viṣayīcā/-sāṭhīcā. They also form light-verb predicates by combining an adverbialized noun or adjective with a verb, and construct complex predicates using a main verb followed by an auxiliary. Taken together, these recurring structural correspondences suggest a deep Dravidian substrate in Marathi rather than isolated lexical borrowing.

Other syntactic evidence
Junghare compares Marathi with Hindi and Telugu and identifies several Marathi patterns that resemble Telugu more closely than Hindi:

• participial and reduced relative clauses;
• omission of recoverable pronouns;
• topic–comment organization;
• flexible topicalization;
• reduced reliance on passive constructions;
• negative auxiliaries;
• sequences of non-finite verbs.

Marathi retains the Indo-Aryan relative-correlative construction represented by Hindi jo…vo. It also permits participial clauses in which a non-finite verb directly modifies a noun, a major Dravidian strategy.

Junghare argues that these similarities reach too deeply into syntax to be explained as ordinary lexical borrowing. They involve Indo-Aryan forms being used according to Dravidian grammatical rules.[2]

Sjoberg places these patterns within the wider history of Dravidian influence on Indo-Aryan phonology, vocabulary and grammar.[5]Levman discusses related features in Old and Middle Indo-Aryan, including retroflex consonants, participial sequences, postposed quotatives and dative-experiencer constructions.[7]

Daven Hobbs argues that dative-subject constructions spread in early New Indo-Aryan partly through Dravidian contact, while stressing the need for historical and geographic evidence before identifying any shared feature as contact-induced.[6]

Marathi’s Dravidian core vocabulary
Southworth estimates that about five percent of Marathi’s basic vocabulary is Dravidian in origin.[4] This is significant because basic words kinship terms, body parts, directions and common actions are generally harder to borrow than specialized cultural vocabulary.
His examples include words connected with:

• mother
• body parts
• “left” and “side”
• actions such as “scorch,” “pinch” and “sprinkle”
• the postposition kaḍe used for direction, location and possession.

Many appear to come from the Kannada–Kodagu–Tulu branch or an extinct sister language. Others point toward Telugu-related, Central Dravidian, Munda or unidentified sources.[4]

This suggests that pre-Marathi developed in a multilingual region. It does not require one Dravidian language to have been spoken throughout Maharashtra.

Earlier Dravidian languages in Maharashtra Southworth cites place names and river names as evidence that one or more Dravidian languages were formerly spoken in Maharashtra. He identifies a “Proto-Kannada”-like language or an extinct relative as the main source of Marathi’s Dravidian vocabulary, with further contact involving Telugu-related and Central Dravidian languages.[4]

The presence of core vocabulary, verbs and a postposition points to daily interaction and widespread bilingualism, not merely recent border contact.

Southworth also discusses an archaeological proposal that some agricultural populations associated with the Jorwe cultural region may have been Dravidian-speaking before the arrival of Indo-Aryan groups. He treats this as a working hypothesis, not a proven identification.[4]

His studies of Proto-Dravidian agricultural and rice vocabulary use reconstructed words for livestock, crops and cultivation to investigate early Dravidian movements.[8][9]These studies provide background for a Dravidian presence in the Deccan but do not independently prove the quasi-creole model.
Kolipakam and colleagues estimate that the Dravidian family is approximately 4,500 years old and recover four major branches: North, Central, South I and South II.[10]This supports the family’s antiquity but cannot identify the exact language once spoken in Maharashtra.

What is established and what remains disputed?
The old Dravidian substrate in Marathi is supported by evidence from basic vocabulary, phonology, semantics and syntax. The contact was deep enough to affect sentence structure, which is consistent with bilingualism and language shift.

What remains disputed is Southworth’s specific claim that a pidginized Prakrit became a creole or quasi-creole. Long-term bilingual convergence could produce some of the same results without a distinct pidgin stage.

Conclusion
Marathi is Indo-Aryan by descent but contains a deep Dravidian substrate. Southworth’s language-shift model explains how Dravidian speakers may have helped form Marathi, although the proposed pidgin-to-creole pathway remains debated.

References

  1. Southworth, Franklin C. 1971. “Detecting Prior Creolization: An Analysis of the Historical Origins of Marathi.” In Dell Hymes, ed., *Pidginization and Creolization of Languages*, pp. 255–273. Cambridge University Press.
  2. Junghare, Indira Y. 2009. “Syntactic Convergence: Marathi and Dravidian.” *Bulletin of the Transilvania University of Braşov* 2(51), Series IV.
  3. [https://webbut.unitbv.ro/index.php/Series_IV/article/download/7541/5708/15195](https://webbut.unitbv.ro/index.php/Series_IV/article/download/7541/5708/15195))
  4. Krishnamurti, Bhadriraju. 2003. *The Dravidian Languages*. Cambridge University Press.
  5. Southworth, Franklin C. 2005. “Prehistoric Implications of the Dravidian Element in the NIA Lexicon, with Special Reference to Marathi.” *International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics* 34(1): 17–28.
  6. [https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/\~fsouth/DravidianElement.pdf](https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~fsouth/DravidianElement.pdf))
  7. Sjoberg, Andrée F. 1992. “The Impact of Dravidian on Indo-Aryan: An Overview.” In Edgar C. Polomé and Werner Winter, eds., *Reconstructing Languages and Cultures*, pp. 507–530.
  8. [https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110867923.507](https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110867923.507))
  9. Hobbs, Daven. 2016. “Dravidian Influence on Indo-Aryan: The Case of the Dative-Subject Construction.” Undergraduate honors thesis, Ohio State University.
  10. [https://telibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Dravidian-influence-on-indo-aryan.pdf](https://telibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Dravidian-influence-on-indo-aryan.pdf))
  11. Levman, Bryan G. 2023. “The Influence of Proto-Dravidian on Indo-Aryan Phonology, Morphology and Syntax, Part 2.” *International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics* 52(1).
  12. [https://www.academia.edu/98592475/THE_INFLUENCE_OF_PROTO_DRAVIDIAN_ON_INDO_ARYAN_PHONOLOGY_MORPHOLOGY_AND_SYNTAX_Part_2](https://www.academia.edu/98592475/THE_INFLUENCE_OF_PROTO_DRAVIDIAN_ON_INDO_ARYAN_PHONOLOGY_MORPHOLOGY_AND_SYNTAX_Part_2))
  13. Southworth, Franklin C. “Proto-Dravidian Agriculture.” Presented at the Seventh ESCA Harvard–Kyoto Round Table and later published in Toshiki Osada, ed., *Linguistics, Archaeology and the Human Past in South Asia*.
  14. [https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/\~fsouth/Proto-DravidianAgriculture.pdf](https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~fsouth/Proto-DravidianAgriculture.pdf))
  15. Southworth, Franklin C. 2011. “Rice in Dravidian.” *Rice* 4: 142–148.
  16. [https://doi.org/10.1007/s12284-011-9076-9](https://doi.org/10.1007/s12284-011-9076-9))
  17. Kolipakam, Vishnupriya, et al. 2018. “A Bayesian Phylogenetic Study of the Dravidian Language Family.” *Royal Society Open Science* 5: 171504.
  18. [https://doi.org/10.1098/rsos.171504k](https://doi.org/10.1098/rsos.171504))

r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question Karana and Kayastha Community History

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Hello I am someone from AP , and the caste I come from here is Karanas or SistaKaranas . We are also called patnaiks in Ap and Telangana. We have surnames like Mantri, Mahanti etc . We have been told that we have Chitragupta as our deity in the past some relatives say, but we don’t worship him as our deity at least from what I know. We have a good reverence for Lekhani (pen) but most often our festivals etc are in concordance with telugu niyogi brahmin community apart from the meat eating. We have many from our community in Odisha as well especially in areas like Korput, Rayagada, Gajapati etc . We are originally from Odisha as most of our community migrated during the Gajapati empire in areas like Visakhapatnam, Vizianagaram and Srikakulam. Many of our relatives in Odisha are known there as part of the broader Karana Community.
Many of our relatives lived in Bengal and they have met many Karanas there as well in areas like Kolkata. Bengal , Odisha and Ap were are all once under the same kingdoms and many karanas migrated to big cities in these regions for many administrative roles .

We have upanayan samskar as well in our families . I wanted to know how are karanas related to the broader kayastha community in the North ? I heard the name of karan kayastha and maithili kayastha etc once with a bihari friend of mine , so I am intrigued by this . Can anyone tell me the relationship of all these communities in different states? Coz I know that Odia Karanas and AP karanas belong to either sreshtha karana and Nauli karanas respectively.

I am sure that Karana kayasthas in Odisha, Bengal , Ap, Bihar , Chattisgarh are all closely related but I am not sure of CKPs and Assam Kayastha who are also very prominent but I am not sure of their direct relation

Why don’t kayasthas as a whole have a sense of recognition of unity like Brahmins ? One reason i can see is Kayasthas in any region have festivals similar to the brahmin community in that region , maybe that gave a sense of difference in the past?

I don’t in any way support any jati varna system but I am just intrigued from a historical point of view


r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Question Fascinated by stories from 17-18 th century india...Is there any book which tells about the history of 17-18th century india particularl north ...dont need any ncert or competitive exams type book. Need something that tells about the living standard, lifestyle ,social condition,story etc.

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Same.


r/IndianHistory 2d ago

Visual My interpretation of the Region of India based on culture, history and geography.

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It's a bit amateurish, so I'd appreciate reviews and changes.

Edit: Looking at the comments, I'd just like to clarify that the boundaries depict regions with cultural continuity, I have not at any point implied that these regions have the same culture.

Edit #2: It seems many people do not understand the difference between cultural continuity and cultural similarity.


r/IndianHistory 2d ago

Early Medieval 550–1200 CE From Sangam Chieftains to British Rule: The Untold History of Baramahal and Its Forts

Thumbnail heritagetamil.in
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