r/interesting • u/Fabulous_Rip3952 • 7d ago
HISTORY In 2015, Volkswagen was caught using secret software that could detect when a car was undergoing an emissions test automatically tuning the engine to lower its pollution outputs, only to emit up to 40x the legal limit during normal driving.
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u/Fabulous_Rip3952 7d ago
The scandal cost Volkswagen over $33 billion in global fines, settlements, and buybacks, forcing them to buy back roughly 350,000 cars in the US alone. CEO Martin Winterkorn resigned within days, VW pleaded guilty to US federal criminal charges, and several top executives and engineers served prison time. As part of its legal settlement, VW was forced to invest $2 billion into US electric charging infrastructure—creating Electrify America—which ultimately killed off their "Clean Diesel" lineup and forced the company's massive pivot into electric vehicle
Image is from The guardian
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u/Humbatiki 7d ago
Meanwhile in Europe we have German government protecting VW group
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u/Iammax7 7d ago
Not just the German goverment, the whole of EU.
I understand that the European car market is important for work. But stop bailing them out for billions and still let them do their shit.
Force them to compete with Chinese EV's instead of keeping them out and still making shit quality EV's.
It just doesn't make sense. They can make europian cars also much cheaper if they pick the Chinese/Tesla customization options.
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u/RandomUserNo5 7d ago
They can make europian cars also much cheaper if they pick the Chinese/Tesla
Man come on, there's some base limit for how crappy the car can be inside.
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u/Iammax7 7d ago
I mean chinese cars also have like maximum of 5 options to chose from of which 4 are version and exterior. Even Tesla has more options then any EU car from stock for less of a comparable EU model. Chinese cars are similiar.
Any european brand has like 10 different versions then you still don't have all the options on the inside and you are already way up in prices.
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u/Demizmeu 7d ago edited 7d ago
Chinese cars are based on child/forced labor on their supply chains and maaaassive government subsidies. The whole point is to make them cheap so they can disrupt (at best) or completely destroy (at worst) car industries particularly the one in EU.
So you're either a chinese bot, or don't know anything about anything.
Edt: spelling
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u/helf1x 6d ago edited 6d ago
BYD has two factories in Hungary, Omoda/Jaecoo has a factory in Spain, Leapmotor has factories in Poland and Spain, Geely has factories in Spain, Sweden and Belgium, XPENG has a factory in Austria, SAIC has a factory in Spain.
Are you suggesting they employ European children, or that they're smuggling Chinese children in to staff these plants?
Edit: Also what you were replying to is very much true. The Chinese EVs have very little in the way of variance. The Omoda E5 has Comfort and Noble spec, BYD Seal has Design or Excellence (as per their other models too) etc etc. There are no add-ons or deviations. Maybe it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about?
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u/SirGreybush 6d ago
But of course, and as a Canadian over the age of 50, I've seen Republican led companies acquire and destroy profitable companies in the US and Canada to have it all done in China. Just for a stock market bump up.
USA & Republicans are very much to blame. Same for recycling, got rid of local companies to send to China our recycling which ended up backfiring because of the poor quality of said materials. China no longer accepting, and thus it all goes into landfill except a tiny minority. Follow that truck that picks up the recycling, see where it goes.
Child labour and bad business practices, not honoring patents, has been the norm with China since at least the early 1990's.
So ask why Republicans are so chummy-chummy with communists.
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u/cdazzo1 6d ago
Has Europe considered slave labor to compete with China?
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u/bogdanelcs 6d ago
They use mostly robots in China. Maybe Europe should invest in automation.
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u/Tomazack 6d ago
One EV, two or more EVs. Not sure why so many get it wrong, the apostrophe isn't applicable for pluralisation.
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u/Ready-Rise3761 6d ago
can’t really complain about the bailing out european manufacturers and then name China as a positive example. To compete with them Europe would need to subsidize even more, not less.
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u/KalerionTheWizard 6d ago
Not just the German government. Since 1990, the German economy works like this: Import parts manufactured in eastern Europe, do final assembly in Germany, slap a "made in Germany" sticker on the product and sell it to the rest of the world.
If VW dies, the German economy dies. If the German economy dies, the eastern European economy doesn't have anyone to sell to, so the eastern European economy dies. And if you remember from the euro crisis in 2010, other than Scandinavia, that's the bit of Europe that actually makes any money.
Remember "Too big to fail"? Turns out, that doesn't just apply to banks.
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u/Brilliant_Nova 7d ago edited 6d ago
If VW was an American company, they would've granted them an access to government and a juicy contact, like they did with GM. But otherwise they essentially used VW build American electric car infrastructure, and that's a good thing.
P.S. with CAFE, and 2025 Bill Act the fine for this exact infraction is literally 0 dollars.
P.S.S. the 2 billion Electrify America became an asset, a second charging network by size.
P.S.S.S. I don't think people comprehend how much is 33 billion.
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u/JudgeSmails 6d ago
Granted an access to government? What does that even mean? And VWs forced contribution was a drop in the bucket to the overall infrastructure.
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u/Dovahkiinthesardine 6d ago
Even better, German tax payers pay for this shit while the CEOs made millions/billions
Its a joke
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u/Sufficient_Toe4139 6d ago
And rightly so. Do you really think VW was the only automaker doing this? Instead EU allowed VW to shoot themselves into the head. It was a mistake they pleaded guilty.
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7d ago
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u/Blackwolf245 6d ago
An a side note: This also led to Audi and Porsche withdrawing from lmp1 category of the World Endurance Championship at the end of 2016 and 2017 respectively.
For Audi, this was the mark of the end of a huge era: They run at the top category of the 24H of Le Mans between 2000 and 2016 and have won 13 times. Audi later almost completely withdraw from sportscar racing, pivoting to F1.
Porsche ran between 2014 - 17, they have won 3 times between 15-17. Porsche later returned for the new hypercar regulations in 23, only to exit again after 25 (they still race in IMSA).
This also opened the door for Toyota, who went on win 5 times in a row at Le Mans, and win the championship as well between 2018-22.
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u/Druid_Fashion 7d ago
Whats even better, is that nearly every car company did that, or similar, like Ford and GM, but VW got made an example of.
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u/MoneyPitAuto 6d ago
This is not true. VW did something unique to all other manufacturers. It would explicitly detect when it was being tested and activate full emissions control only then.
Other manufacturers have had plenty of violations and they all tune for emissions testing that you can easily argue isn't representative of the real world, but they didn't do the same thing as VW.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa 6d ago
Wonder how fast the "oh fuck shut it all down" meeting got called at all other manufacturers' offices lol
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u/jrschlumpf 7d ago
Don't care they got caught. Don't care they had to pay fines. They tried to cheat the public (me) intentionally. I will never consider a VW car for purchase, ever.
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u/soundlinked 7d ago
Ok, don't buy a Subaru, Toyota, GM, BMW, and Mercedes among other brands as well then, otherwise you're just a hypocrite
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u/briancoat 6d ago
Yep.
And Ford. Bonnet switch saga. Econoline fuel economy caper. Etc. Etc.
Chrysler. GM. I expect the same.
Also, cycle beaters *and* defeat devices being used by many manufacturers today. Not sure about Tesla but having seen them in very low speed impacts I seriously doubt their bumpers are 49 CFR Part 581 compliant without some "help" (there are ways).
All about the money...
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u/Classic-Charity7458 6d ago
The interesting thing though, at least from the Netflix documentary I saw on the subject, was that they cared greatly about the software improving the reliability and performance of the car.
So they cheated the environment, but If you owned one they did this in the interest of giving you a better performing car.
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u/Simon_Emes 7d ago
Fully agree with you.
Just wish everyone would treat Microsoft the same after they lost many legal cases around the globe for their business practices forcing hardware manufacturers to work with them and keeping office and browser competition off their platform.
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u/Prestigious_Dare7734 6d ago
Another fact on that. Many car companies were trying to come up with a consumer diesel engine that meets the norms. And VW showed their diesel engines as engineering marvels as the first company to be able to develop diesel engines for consumer market that meet the standard. They just didn't lie about hiding the emmissinons, they lied about achieving a breakthrough.
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u/Then_Idea_9813 6d ago
It’s crazy that this is what got CEOs to serve prison time but to this day health insurance execs routinely deny lifesaving treatments, handing down what is essentially a death sentence to people WITH health insurance
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u/artificialidentity3 6d ago
I know I'm just one person and it's probably not that impactful but it also cost VW my business lifelong. I had one of the Passats that was affected and they had to buy it back. I also swore that I would never buy another Volkswagen - and I never will. Fuck 'em.
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u/AlwaysVerloren 6d ago
I managed to get sweet deal on a 13 Jetta Sportwagen with an additional 100k warranty from the desiel gate situation.
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u/doeffgek 3d ago
And over a decade later a lot of Europeans are still having lawsuits in various ways to get a compensation for what VAG has done.
Mind you that this compensation will in not a single way be a mass buy back operation like in the USA. It will be more of something like max €2500.
I’m one of those people. The different negotiations parties say they have reached an agreement in August 2025, but every single one who entered for their claim hasn’t seen a single cent up till today. VAG is, by hand of Veritas, frustrating this till the end of days.
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u/WhoCaresBoutSpellin 7d ago
I daily drive one of these DieselGate VWs— it’s a 2013 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI
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u/Suspicious-Double750 6d ago
The diesels made by VW are awesome.
1.9 TDI is legendary.
The new 2.0 TDI 150HP are also cool. Love them, fuel consumption can be under 4L/100km, plenty of torque.
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u/idle_monkeyman 6d ago
i have a 2016 Audi A3 E-Tron. It came out afterwards but uses the 1.4T engine that was a part of the recall. CA got a battery rebate for it that replaced the entire battery at 70k miles, saving me about 10 grand. that never happened with my old VWs.
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u/unfvckingbelievable 7d ago
Curious, is it currently running as is? Or was there some sort of service done to bring it in line to where it was supposed to be?
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u/andy_chest 7d ago
With mine there was the option for VW to buy it back (at a really great price) or they could make changes to the car to make it compliant. Iirc the fix would affect not just emissions but how powerful and fuel efficient the car was. The buy back was a no-brainer for me.
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u/cykelstativet 6d ago
Did you have the option to just... not?
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u/Kriegenstein 6d ago
I had one and opted for the fix. In Massachusetts without the fix it would not pass state inspection so if you did nothing you wouldn't be able to drive it past its current annual inspection period.
In addition to the fixes they also extended the warranty on the entire engine and emissions system 10 years/100,000 miles AND gave me like 6 grand.
It was a sweet deal.
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u/Remarkable-Host405 6d ago
how do they even check that? the emissions inspection equipment is rather dumb
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u/Soggy_Cabbage 6d ago
Yep, so long as you didn't take it to a VW dealer for servicing they could not nerf your car.
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u/thefluffyparrot 7d ago
I also have one of these vehicles (bought after the scandal). It’s a 2014 Passat. They had to modify the exhaust system and provide a very generous warranty to just about anything related the engine and exhaust. After two years of ownership I spring a massive coolant leak and the local VW dealer replaced the entire coolant system at no cost to me.
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u/BoliverSlingnasty 6d ago
Me too! A pothole later, and some cool softwares, and I regularly get 55mpgs from my GTLie.
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u/arrayofeels 4d ago
Same here! 2011 Seat Altea (Golf/Jetta platform) TDI (1.6). Here in Spain all we got is a few letters asking us to have the firmware updated, which is definitely not recomended. I even had to bring it in to a dealer for a separate recall regarding the airbag and they were like, do you want the firmware upgrade, and i was like lol no. Taking the firmware upgrade would decrease Nox emissions at the price of decreased fuel efficiency and increased CO2 emissions I use the car almost exclusively for long distance highway driving and use an EV in the city, so my conscience is clear.
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u/JankyTundra 6d ago
I gave mine up, a 12 golf tdi. They were giving us stupid money for a car with 80k miles. Turned around and bought a Mercedes deisel, which, fast forward to 5 years back, had its own scandal and paid me 4,000$ to replace the emmisions system with basically the same system. Still driving it today.
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u/NaCl_Sailor 7d ago
and let me tell you, they were not the only ones
when i was at uni the math department had written software like that for another big German manufacturer.
they all just quietly turned them off when it came out at VW
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u/DavidFosterLawless 6d ago
Care to name them?
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u/katonda 6d ago
i mean it's either Mercedes or BMW. My money's on Mercedes since they were big on diesels in Europe.
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u/urfriendlyDICKtator 6d ago
Both...among others like: Porsche, Seat, Skoda, Audi, Fiat, Opel, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda,...
And it's not even the first time this happened: in the 70s General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and VW did it
In the 90s GM and Ford lost lawsuits against, also Honda and for trucks: Caterpillar, Cummins Engine, Detroit Diesel, Mack Trucks, Navistar, Renault Trucks and Volvo Trucks
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u/zinten789 6d ago
Half of those German brands are owned by VW and used the same dieselgate engines.
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u/FFS_Roger 6d ago
The BfV (apparently the German version of the FBI) already has him bro, we're never getting a response 😭
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u/incognino123 5d ago
I worked in the industry in the late 00s. It was discussed openly, I didn't even know it was illegal. The entire industry did it, all automotive not just cars but also ag, industrial, construction, etc
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u/nsfvvvv 7d ago
its good that they had to take responsibility for it and got major fines and reputation damage.
But it felt a bit strange that suddenly Volkswagen had the reputation of being very polluting, fuel consuming.
While the average American made car still was way more polluting and had a worse milage per gallon. Even with the real numbers.
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u/mondaymoderate 7d ago
It’s because it was a diesel. The US has strict emission standards when it comes to diesels that’s why they don’t make cars with diesel engines here.
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u/GlitteringCarrot987 7d ago
Isn't this the reason trucks became so popular in the US in the first place, to evade emission laws because they are not legally classified as "cars" but "trucks"? If so, these strict emission standards could as well not exist.
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u/mondaymoderate 7d ago
Yes but more for gasoline vehicles the US is still pretty strict on diesel trucks emissions.
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u/zinten789 6d ago
Or if you're somewhere like Florida, they just give a fuck. It's totally legal and there are zero inspections here, truly the Wild West of car ownership and modding.
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u/LowerBed5334 6d ago
No, that's not true. The BMW's in the same test as the VW's passed and exceeded the standards.
The difference was that the BMW's had expensive hardware while they VWs used their shitty software cheat (which was created by Bosch).
Clean diesel is very real. My diesel Seat Leon got over 55mpg when driven economically. It could also cruise at 140mph across the Autobahn all day, every day, if I wanted to. It was the perfect car.
It wasn't affected by the cheat software.
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u/mondaymoderate 6d ago
BMW no longer sells diesels in the US because they could no longer pass emission standards.
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u/living_rabies 6d ago edited 6d ago
Thats not true. Diesel cars are much more efficient than gasoline ones and american manufacturer were not able to compete. For protecting the market, the emission limits were set to be not fullfillable and if only with a lot of cost and performance downside. Diesel is generally the best choice for the driving requirements in the US. For trucks those limits were not valid and American made Diesel ones were awfully more pollutant than EU manufactured normal cars.
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u/Remarkable-Host405 6d ago
that's not true. diesel is nasty af, the nox pollution are way worse, which is why you need synthetic piss
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u/LowerBed5334 6d ago
They did this in order to break into the US market. There was absolutely no demand for diesel passenger cars in the US. Diesel costs more at the pump than gasoline (in the US) and the diesel fuel itself is NOT the same quality as diesel in Europe, because there's no demand for high quality diesel which would cost even more.
So, in order to keep the price of their cars low, they did this software cheat (which, btw, was created by BOSCH, a company that flies under the radar in this scandal but was every bit as guilty as VW/Audi).
Something that rarely gets mentioned is the fact that BMW cars were tested at the same time, and they passed with flying colours and without any cheating software. Clean diesel is not a myth, it's very real, but it's expensive. BMW can demand higher prices for their cars than VW, that's essentially why VW chose to cheat.
And to me, that's the biggest scandal of all. The greedy bastards at VW destroyed the clean diesel market for good, even though it was a great solution that could have continued for many years.
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u/MechMeister 7d ago
Pretty dumb take. Gasoline is less efficient but only emits CO2 and water with emissions. Diesel emits NOx and other particulates that directly affect Lung health and cancer rates in a local area.
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u/graywolfman 7d ago
While the average American made car still was way more polluting and had a worse milage per gallon. Even with the real numbers.
Is it because you are including the very large and stupid SUV and pickup vehicles? Genuinely curious. I absolutely despise that those things exist, especially as the driver of a small sedan. I almost like we die if I get into any sort of wreck beyond a fender bender with any of those things.
I wish we could bring back the old small Ford Rangers, Toyota Tundras, Chevy S10s, etc.
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u/GrumbleAlong 7d ago
The oversized pickup and SUV phenomenon is a direct result of new government Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations based on the foot print of the truck. Small trucks had to meet new efficiency standards that didn't apply to vehicles with a longer wheelbase and wider track.
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u/graywolfman 6d ago
Yup, so dumb. What's worse is they never closed the loophole, either. Now, we're stuck with the giant polluting garbage
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u/kikiacab 7d ago
It was only discovered because some students decided to test them on the road lol, they almost got away with it
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u/CleverBunnyThief 6d ago
Oliver Schmidt, one of the executives that served time in prison, was only arrested because he kept traveling to the US after the investigation began. He was arrested in 2017 at the airport as he returned to Germany after spending Christmas holidays in Miami.
He was sentenced to seven years.
"He crossed the U.S. border multiple times before the government arrested him," his attorneys say in the documents, adding that he arrived for Christmas vacation in Florida on Dec. 17. "Clearly not concerned that he would flee, the government waited until Jan. 7 to arrest him at the Miami airport as he prepared to return to Germany."
Schmidt, who worked in the U.S. from 2012 to early 2015, contacted the FBI and willingly participated in an interview in London in November 2015 "without any preparation or legal counsel," his lawyers say in the court documents.
https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/2017/03/04/olivier-schmidt-volkswagen-diesel-scandal/98657976/
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u/BadahBingBadahBoom 6d ago
It's nice the EU/Germany actually arrested him though.
Meanwhile the Boeing senior leadership are all walking around free after actually killing two planes worth of people through deliberate and knowing safety failures.
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u/thirty-thirty-thirty 6d ago
I have a VW Jetta TDI (diesel). 2.0L inline 4.
It was part of dieselgate.
The options were:
VW buys back the car above market value (a very good deal)
You keep the car, they update the software and pay you.
I choose to keep the car. I believe I got about $5,000 cash once they had updated/modified the exhaust and software.
After modifications, fuel economy and power both went down. 😞
I took the cash settlement and got the car tuned. Deleted the DPF and had a stage 2 tune.
After that, it was a total different car. So much torque, no lag, and my mpg is 48+ regardless of how I drive. If I drive gentle highway miles under 70mph, I get ~52 mpg. Some hyper milers get even more.
A year later, I took it for state inspection (diesels are exempt from emissions in my state, so it's just a safety inspection like horn, lights, tires, etc.)
The tech came out and told me my car passed, but it was borderline on one of the emissions specs.
I was confused and said "it's a diesel, you don't need to do emissions."
He accidentally did a full emissions test on it, as if it were the gasoline version of the car. It passed the gas emissions test! The sulfur emissions were the one item that was borderline, but the other emissions stats were actually on the lower end of the acceptable range. NOx was low. CO2 was low.
It's got 280,000 miles. 15 years old. Just regular maintenance like oil and filter. 2 timing belts. One coolant flush. Original brakes!! (DSG transmission and I love to coast to a stop.)
I get around 50 mpg and I can pass gasoline emissions tests. It drives so well, with great torque down low.
Diesels get such a bad rap. When they started adding DPFs, EGRs and SCRs (def) it added to the complexity and cost, and due to heat loading, the engines aren't as reliable.
But it's such a great little car. Love it. Too bad the government doesn't to factor in the lifespan of cars when they legislate more emissions controls.
You wanna save the environment? Keeping a car for a long time so it doesn't end up rotting in a landfill is a good start!
Sure, I drive a diesel and the exhaust is modified. Some people would hate me just for that. But I use very little fuel, pollute no worse than a gas car, and less NOx and CO2. And I'll keep the car until in totally breaks down.
15 years ago, people with diesel cars were often huge environmental supporters. Lots of people experimented with using waste oil for fuel, vegetable oil, etc. It was a cool community with plenty of 'greenies' doing what they felt was right.
These days, most people will have gone through 3-4 cars in the time I kept 1 car. What happens to those old cars that no one wants? What about EV batteries that go bad?
Over the long haul, I think I'm doing better for the environment (and my wallet) than the average person.
It is SUCH a shame that VW did this, because they had such a good thing going.
VW diesels were known to be great, fuel efficient and not polluting. Same with BMW and Mercedes diesels.
Governments around the world threw the book at them, and I think part of it was because it was at the beginning of the recent 'green revolution'and VW was sacrificed at the alter of climate change.
Again, I'm not knocking green energy or anything like that. Just saying that my VW diesel does not pollute like some people think, and over its life, I've used HALF of the total fuel the same car with a gas engine would have used.
And it may not look so good on the outside (some faded paint) but him not hyper-consuming like some people.
Obviously VW was to blame here, no doubt. But, they were trying to meet government regulations that take a very short-sighted view of what's 'good'or 'bad'.
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u/simdagger1976 6d ago
There's a lot in that post but yes...and I think it's something most people just fail to understand.
Diesels do less damage to the environment in what they throw out of the exhaust especially in their CO2 output compared to Petrol engines.
They're fuel efficient you can run them on recycling water vegetable oil and they last forever
...but...
That doesn't sell for the big companies, they need you to buy more gas, they need you to replace your engine after 250,000 miles, they need you buy a new car.
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u/CoHorseBatteryStaple 6d ago edited 6d ago
DPF controls, well, soot. I bet gas emissions does not test for that.
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u/Classic-Charity7458 6d ago
I love how you basically had to pay to undo VW's government mandated "repair."
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u/BajingoWhisperer 7d ago
What I find more interesting is that Subaru, Toyota, Ford, and GM have all been caught doing the same thing after this with way less fines
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u/feel-the-avocado 5d ago
My first thought would be that there are so many brands owned by VW - the fines may have been relative to sales figures, and I dont know about the american market, but here in NZ they were really going hard with diesel where as others were mostly selling petrol vehicles so would have small sales of diesel vehicles by comparison.
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u/KittyInspector3217 6d ago
The fact that this didnt absolutely bankrupt the company is an indictment of fines as a deterrent. Repeal citizens united.
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u/LumpyCustard4 6d ago
The conspiracy is that VAG was targeted due to being one of the few companies that could actually survive.
I was working with Renault at the time and coincidentally a bunch of reprogramming campaigns were launched.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/mechapoitier 7d ago
The first time you have somebody mention their grandparent who grew up in the ‘80s, you realize it.
I swear half the arguments I get into on here are with a 16 year old who just googled a life event I lived through.
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u/0w0whatisthis 7d ago
I'm 03 and didn't know about this, i guess I've been living under a rock
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u/GForce1975 7d ago
- Didn't know this. It's interesting.
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7d ago
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u/itsjakerobb 7d ago
I’m about to turn 46 and from the US. I feel like a lot of noise was made about this when it happened.
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u/briancoat 6d ago
It's all relative.
Can you recall all the *major* (post WW2) VW scandals which came before this one?
Let's give the young 'uns a break.
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u/Idea_Fiend 7d ago
This sounds like something Formula1 would do and Id want ActuallyVen to cover.
Reminds me most of how officials monitored engine performance but the sensor only checked like 20,000 times a second, so a racing team made a software that boosted their engine only during the periods that the sensor wasnt checking to get around it.
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u/TerroFLys 6d ago
Damn legends how did they even detect it. Imma be pissed if its as simple as standing still + gas
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u/whapitah2021 6d ago
No steering wheel input during emissions testing would send a flag to the PCM to clean up the emissions - pretty sharp idea.
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u/sacking03 6d ago
Netflix Dirty Hard NOx on this. Basically some college was testing for their study and was getting incorrect exhaust readings. Brought to government agency and they asked VW why the difference and it went all down hill for VW.
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u/Snorblatz 6d ago
I had a Jetta for a couple of years. If they’re under warranty it’s ok, but unless you’re a VW mechanic they’re too expensive to fix on your own dime.
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u/Snobben90 7d ago
Imagine... They went from a guy who loved engines and cars and put a freaking W10 in an old BMW just so it didnt stand out, drove it back and forth to work as part of its development, to a guy who still hasnt been prosecuted for what feels like a billion crimes cause he is "ill".
VW has lost what it once stood for, just because people think businessmen should be leaders and not people who knows what the company does.
Keep in mind that the legendary guy had Ferdinand Porsche as his grandfather, and has had his hands in Audi Quattro and Porsche 911...
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u/reikoda01 6d ago
I think the 917 would've been a FAR better mention over the 911. He's done a lot more than just that, though. He is, likely, the sole reason Volkswagen even exists today - and why the automotive industry's peak looked the way it did.
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u/Agitated_Car_2444 7d ago
Shoulda kept our TDI Sportwagen...but the buyback $$$ was just too juicy (we got a check from Bosch, too).
But I do wish we'd kept it.
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u/Miserable-Biscotti54 7d ago
Companies globally saw this and learned how not to get caught so easily.
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u/1995LexusLS400 7d ago
It wasn't just VW, there were a whole bunch of manufacturers doing this. Especially in Europe where diesel cars were pretty popular. I have one of the emissions cheat cars from Ford. It conveniently outputs 1g of CO2 per km lower than what puts it in the tax bracket that you have to pay for tax (in the UK, at least pre-April 2025) and the official mpg figure is literally impossible to get. Officially, it gets 83mpg average. The previous owner had 5600 miles on the trip computer and it was sitting on 55mpg. HonestJohn user mpg figures say the average people get is 58mpg and right now for me (with hypermiling) I'm sitting on 70.5mpg. With regular driving, I can't get it above 65mpg.
VW getting caught cheating basically killed diesel cars in Europe. The diesel car marketshare in Europe in 2015 for new registrations was around 50%. Today that's down to 7.5%. EVs have put a big dent in it, but if you look at petrol (gas) cars for comparison, in 2015, new registration petrol cars was around 33%, today, it's (and I'm counting hybrids because hybrids back in 2015 counted as petrol cars) 32%.
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u/Long-Challenge4927 6d ago
Could someone simpify the heading for a non native speaker? I read it like 15 times and it still doesn't make sense
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u/Douggiefresh43 6d ago
VW cheated emissions tests so that they tested within legally limits. But the cars were only under the legal limit when the cars’ computers knew they were being tested.
It’s like starving yourself for a few days before a weight check and then overeating as soon as the weight check is done.
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u/LItifosi 7d ago
This was such a racing level hack, truly genius. Funny enough, even though the cars were allegedly spewing up to 40x allowable emissions, those diesels didn't smoke, certainly not as much as the older models from the 70s and 80s. I feel the whole thing was blown out of proportion to the actual crime committed.
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u/Kristosh 6d ago
Misconception> the majority (90%+) of harmful Diesel emissions are invisible.
The "black diesel exhaust" you're seeing is soot particulate on vehicles without or with less refined DPF systems.
That's why it actually WAS a big deal what VW (and others) were doing...
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u/Classic-Charity7458 6d ago
I test drove a TDI VW Beetle convertible. That diesel smell was there. Diesel is a really stupid choice for a convertible.
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u/belisssss 7d ago
Such a disgrace. Our car manufacturers are the representatives of our economy with vw at the forefront. How the fck could they seriously have believed that the truth of it wouldnt come out eventually
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u/simdagger1976 6d ago
VW don't need to...they're the best made, best cars, made for the people....name one brand that can say that?
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u/DankestDubster 7d ago
One of the reasons they offered 7 year warranty on certified cars. And 0% interest rates.
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u/DuffdPuttz 7d ago
Wish I kept mine and didn’t take the buyout. My TDI Jetta manual was doing 50mpg otw to work
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u/King-James-3 7d ago
Companies would stop doing this kinda stuff if we just collectively agreed to stop buying VWs forever.
But they offer buybacks, free repairs, and discounts and we do what is best for our pocketbooks.
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u/RogerRavvit88 6d ago
People who drive VWs always seem to drive and park like rules don’t apply to them. Doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the people who make them sharing that mindset.
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u/derbertigebert 6d ago
Fun fact: According to the media, the only “victims” were apparently the car owners who suffered a loss in value — not the people who actually had to breathe in that shit.
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u/mighty__ 6d ago
Thing is - ordinary customers do not give a damn about that. They are more concerned about mileage. So effectively government did that for themselves and for the budget.
VW found a clever way to get around regulations and just got busted. Eventually customers were impacted by that because VW lost money and had to compensate losses through price increase.
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u/This_Narwhalino 6d ago
It’s crazy to find out US emission limits for diesel pollution are lower than EU
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u/GremlinAbuser 6d ago
A point that is often overlooked is that this was to the consumer's benefit and resulted in less global warming. The flip side was increased NOx, which is strictly a local pollutant.
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u/MurtZero1134 6d ago
Believe it or not, the customers came ahead on this one.
I was in car sales when this happened. VW offered to either fix it for free, or buy it out from you - at full MSRP, regardless of year and miles.
Looooots of people bought cars they normally wouldn't be able to afford because of this.
Edit: changed "they" to "VW"
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u/Touristenopfer 6d ago
How much did Ford have to pay for their 6,7 Powerstroke Diesel, emitting 50 times the limit using a defeat device?
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u/Fast_Cloud_4711 6d ago
Has an tdi under this buyback. Did the paperwork and a week before I had to turn it in a tree fell over it. I took the salvage loss vs total and drove it to the dealer. Between insurance and buyback made ~$2000.
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u/QuarkVsOdo 6d ago
Fiat just asked how long the standarized test takes.
It was some 20 minutes.
And they just deactivated the injection of catalysts after 23 minutes after every engine start.
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u/aquatone61 6d ago
Yeah and what everybody forgets is that other companies that used the same Bosch engine computers were caught doing the same thing. Some not to the same extent but basically anybody that offered a turbo diesel engine with that computer did the same thing. Bosch baked the mode into the computer.
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u/Away_Wheel_9518 6d ago
Shame on the government for letting a car manufacturer’s computer tell it what the emissions are.
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u/UrbanCyclerPT 6d ago
Lots of other brands were doing that too. One time I even thought it was all of them
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u/warriormango1 6d ago
No, it could not detect when a car was undergoing an emissions test. It instead just defaulted to a specific map when the wheels werent being turned. It was an emission test that figured out the lie. The only difference is they figured out to do the test while the vehicle was in motion.
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u/LowerBed5334 6d ago
My 2015 Seat Leon FR diesel with 184 PS was somehow not affected, but the scandal came out about a month after I bought the car!
It was an awesome car that gave me zero problems in 240,000km of driving, not a single thing broke. I sold it a few months ago, and it was seriously like saying goodbye to an old friend.
But I knew that major repairs had to be coming soon. It had the original clutch and exhaust, the turbo and other expensive components don't last forever.
That said, the bastards at VW should have been arrested and prosecuted and sitting in prison still.
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u/ticklemesatan 6d ago
Not shitting you, when the salesman sold me one of these VW‘s, he told me the air was cleaner coming out of the exhaust that it was going in, but fuck I bought it (leased it, crashed it, returned it after settlement and dared them to charge me for the crash repair cost…fuck em)
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u/9998602996 6d ago
IMO effectively killed small diesels in America as well. The v6 TDI is such an amazing engine.
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u/CryRepresentative992 6d ago
Meanwhile GM installed faulty ignition switches that lead to deaths and got off with basically a slap on the wrist.
I bet the VW diesel gate and Toyota accelerator pedal scandals would have been entirely different outcomes if there was no such thing as lobbyists and the Detroit big three in America.
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u/YandereValkyrie 6d ago
The fun part is if you can find an old VW Diesel or Mercedes (They got caught in the same thing, but it wasn't as widely reported) that hasn't had the recall done to fix the emissions, they're worth soooo much more money. The fix absolutely guts their power and fuel efficiency. One of my co-workers has a Mercedes GLK with the diesel option and absolutely refuses to get the recall done. He's a Mercedes master Tech too lol. Around here a lot of people swear by the Jettas, they're amazing if you can get one with no emission update.
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u/kaschperli 6d ago
Have to add those were limits ONLY FOR NON US CARS. US cars never even came close to those shitty little limits the us and a put on pollution. Us cars were hundreds of times more polluting than VW with its little tricks.
It was stupid: if only front tires were turning it wouls go into extreme eco mode even activating pollution reducing devices in the engine. As soon as 4 tires were turning they just shut off, literally shut off, pollution reducing devices and measures.
Meanwhile BMW developed diesel engines that actually fulfilled the crazy almost idiotic us standard (remember for non us vehicles) and they spent a shitton of money for it. The engines drove like cancer, BTW.
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u/Specialist-Nothing41 6d ago
Every time I see a VW EV I try to remember this. They weren’t really a consideration but now, hard pass.
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u/HotPersonality8126 6d ago
Thank god the founder of the company died all those years ago, or he’d be rolling in his grave at this chicanery. Who was that agai- OHHH
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u/FromAndToUnknown 6d ago
I still wonder why, if they had the option to reduce emissions, WHY NOT SIMPLY HAVE THAT ON ALL THE TIME.
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u/CharlyWatts8 5d ago
Ja voll toll ich fahr so einen!Macht dauernd Stress mit irgendwelchen Abgassensoren!tolles Auto!VW sei verflucht!
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u/Numerous_Green4962 5d ago
It was quickly discovered that all the big brands were doing basically the same 4 Real-world NOX emissions from Euro 5 vehicles (Department for... | Download Scientific Diagram
4A6F882000000578-5531311-image-a-32_1521721284141.jpg (634×493)
(The dashed black line is the legal limit)
During official testing the Ford Fiesta produced 18mg/km of NOx, in the DVSA test it was 264mg/km "Ford blamed the cooler test temperatures, which it said would increase both aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance."
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u/PacoSkillZ 3d ago
VW is not the one to blame..They tried. Those rules are stupid because people are driving in private planes inside same cities from airport to airport meanwhile you have to pay 2-5k for new DPF.
Glad I deleted that shit.
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u/ShadowGLI 3d ago
The crazy part is like a dozen other companies were caught doing the same thing, but VW was the only one that got martyred for it
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u/ToyotaAltezza99 3d ago
Or maybe this was a sign that regulators were going too far even then cause I don't think they would cheat if it never went beyond Euro3.
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u/Icy-Reaction-9101 2d ago
So who gives? The companies did the same trick with their vacuum cleaners
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u/CaptainSlinker 2d ago
I remember the sea of VW’s at the now Rivian plant in Normal, IL it was a completely full lot of vw’s 1000’s
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