r/ihatethissmug • u/AffectionateForce979 • 18h ago
People who criticize you for pirating certain products (indie games specially) but support piracy otherwise.
Just to be upfront, I don't like paying for stuff. If you give me the option of either paying or not paying for something, I will literally always pick the second option unconditionally. So for me it's extreme piracy all the way.
What gets to me is people who treat piracy as a moral dilemma, that some things are "ok" to pirate while others aren't. Why should there be "justifications" for piracy? If you want it, just take it. You don't have to feel bad about it.
People don't want to be seen as "stealing" from people who "don't deserve it", but that perspective is entirely up to the person. If someone just doesn't care and wants to have the thing they want without having to pay for it, then they should do it without being criticized for "moral failing" or other crap from "morally superior" people.
You can go and support your independent creators without trying to make other people feel bad for not being as "upstanding" as you, specially if you're fine with piracy as long as it's done with big corporations or products with problematic creators or if the product is too costly. You can pick and choose while others just pick.
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
Robin Hood would disagree with you.
And most people would recognise that stealing £1,000 from a billionaire is morally different from a poor old lady who had only that in her bank.
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u/No-Alternative4612 18h ago
... but if piracy isn't stealing, not stealing from the rich is the same as not stealing from the poor
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
Well yeah but OP didn’t seem to be saying piracy isn’t stealing as such
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u/No-Alternative4612 18h ago
I mean putting "stealing" in quotation marks is reason short hand
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
But the wider point of their comment isn’t ‘piracy is fine because it isn’t stealing’ and they put loads of words in quotation marks in it
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u/kwonza 17h ago
You still deny them the income. Imagine the old lady is selling pies and you spread false rumours the pies are poisoned. Technically you are not stealing from her, but you’re ruining her business
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u/No-Alternative4612 17h ago
Am i stealing from her if I just kinda hang out and enjoy the smell of the pies without ever buying one? Cause that's a shitload closer to what piracy is.
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u/Frobizzle 15h ago
Is it? That's just window shopping. Stealing a pie would be what piracy is. Your taking a product without paying the seller. It's not complicated.
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u/No-Alternative4612 14h ago
When i take a pie, she loses a pie. When I smell a pie, I get some of the experience of purchasing it for free.
Which is closer to piracy?
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u/PunkinPumkin 13h ago
But you're not just getting some of the experience. You are getting the whole thing. You are eating a pie from her stand without paying for it. Smelling a pie would be a hell of a lot closer to a free demo than pirating.
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u/No-Alternative4612 13h ago
Again, I am not eating the pie. If your analogy involves the old woman losing out on ssomething, it's just wrong
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u/PunkinPumkin 13h ago
Losing one sale means she has less money. If the big pie factory next door loses a pie it means nothing. Steal those pies. That's the whole point they're trying to make.
A proper argument would be: Well I wasn't going to buy the pie anyway for that price in the first place. So its either don't have pie or steal this one. And I, the person, am choosing to steal this pie over not having one.
That, regardless of the morals, is more solid an argument than "Well I'm not actually taking money out of her pocket, just the thing that makes her money!"
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u/aliceeatspizza 12h ago
I think the problem with the analogy is that it’s based on the assumption that someone who pirates a game would have bought it otherwise
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u/No-Alternative4612 13h ago
Theft is depriving someone of their property. Copying code never does that.
I can't say whether or not I'd buy indie games in the abscess of piracy, just that I'd never pay for one in it's presence. Ironically the only games I buy are those not easily pirated when i want to play them, so multi-player AAA games.
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u/thegapbetweenus 1h ago
For your analogy to be true the old lady would have to be selling the smell of the pie. Which bring us to the actual point there is a fundamental difference between physical and digital goods and it's stupid to apply the same rules for both.
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u/VaporProof 18h ago edited 18h ago
It’s refreshing to hear this argument from this side of things. I’ve heard people try to defend the big corporations from this perspective before, but it’s nice to hear someone just say they like taking shit.
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u/AffectionateForce979 17h ago
I just like having things. Having them for free means more money for things you're obligated to pay for.
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u/VaporProof 17h ago
I mean, you are obligated to pay for the games. It’s just easier to get them without paying.
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u/Medium-Definition50 18h ago
I think my opinion is that while people can paint morals to piracy (let's say pirating from a corporation), I think a lot of people try to use piracy as a moral scapegoat, as I feel typically pirating a program a corporation isn't really going to boycott said corporation. I've heard Adobe puts enough of a lockdown so it isn't easily pirateable, but not so much that people can't use their products since, at the end of the day, morally or not, they still get people used to their products.
I think the whole moral debate of piracy is strange since many pirates don't care if it's indie or from a giant corporation; if it is something they want to get for free, they will just pirate it, that's really the thing about piracy, there is no real morals regarding it.
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u/Candid_Bullfrog3665 17h ago
this dilema always reminds me of hakita
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u/levus2002 13h ago
Which reminds me of Neil Gaiman
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/509253-when-the-web-started-i-used-to-get-really-grumpy
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u/Muted_Anywherethe2nd 17h ago edited 14h ago
I think pirating from indea creators is bad but pirating from big companies like sony is good because sony abd lost of big companies are some of the most anti consumer peices of shit. Whereas vast majority of indie creators are decent and more often then not relativly cheap. Edit= this is not me trying to argue with you im just tryung to get across my veiwpoint on this. Its perfectly valid to have a pirate everything opinion.
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u/gaom9706 17h ago
anti consumer
serious person
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u/Muted_Anywherethe2nd 17h ago
Are you saying companies like sony are not anti consumer or am i misunderstanding
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u/Crafty_Boy70 17h ago
It’s because SOME pirates treat what they do as some sort of Robin Hood shit like they’re doing moral good by doing it.
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u/Master-Shrimp 17h ago
For me it's the people who try to moralize piracy
"If BuYiNg IsN't OwNeRsHiP, tHeN pIrAcY iSn'T sTeAlInG!"
To those people: No, it is stealing by every conceivable definition. You are taking a service/product without compensating. That is stealing. Many of us do it but don't try to paint yourself as some Johnny Silverhand wannabe fighting against the machine. You're just a thief like the rest of us. You're not sticking it to the man, you're just insecure.
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u/Ambitious-Fly3201 16h ago
I hate how that phrase became so popular and turned half the argument about piracy into a childish back and forth where literally anything bad a company does is grounds for this stupid rhetoric regardless of whether it even applies.
What people should actually be talking about is the how piracy in many cases literally gives you more "ownership" over the product than if you were to buy it outright. Pirated files don't require day-1 downloads or internet connections.
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u/Equivalent_Cut1441 14h ago
But you can thereotically revoke the product at any time, even when I am in the middle of experiencing it. It hasn't happened YET, but give it time. With pirated copies, I don't have to worry about that.
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u/Master-Shrimp 14h ago
Okay but the point still stands that you received product/service without compensation. No matter how you swing it, that’s still stealing.
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u/Equivalent_Cut1441 14h ago
And as far as I'm concerned, revoking a product I paid for is also stealing. No terms and conditions will change my mind.
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u/Master-Shrimp 14h ago
Except that’s not how it works. If you pay 20 dollars to go to a movie theater and start throwing trash everywhere, being disruptive, and actively tampering with the equipment, the theater is fully within its right to throw you out and not refund you. They’re not going to revoke it unless it’s either something plainly stated which you would know about before paying or you did something which violated terms and services. In addition, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. It’s still stealing. You’re not Robin Hood. You’re not Johnny Silverhand. You’re just being a thief.
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u/Equivalent_Cut1441 14h ago
That is how it works. For a theater I am paying for a visit. For a video game, I am paying to use and have it indefinitely.
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u/Master-Shrimp 13h ago
If you want to steal it, fine. Just don’t pretend you’re some great moral agent fighting the machine.
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u/Equivalent_Cut1441 13h ago
It's not stealing if I gave them the money initially. You can't be a thief and accuse me of being one when I take it back into my possession.
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u/Master-Shrimp 13h ago
My god, you very clearly do not understand how terms and services works. I don't give a fuck what you think about them, they are there so you don't get to claim ignorance about what you're getting into. If it says they can take the product for you violating the terms and services, and you sign off on it, you are agreeing to their terms.
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u/Equivalent_Cut1441 13h ago
What part about no terms and conditions will change my mind didn't get through to you? I paid for a product, and taking it is stealing. I'm just taking what is rightfully mine.
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u/GuhEnjoyer 15h ago
"I hayw people who criticize you for stealing from small local businesses but say it's ok to shoplift from wal-mart. Stealing is stealing if I want something I just take it."
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u/AffectionateForce979 15h ago
Cool paraphrasing there.
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u/Anankos1209 15h ago
"I really hate when people call me out on my thievery, its soooooooo mean"
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u/AffectionateForce979 15h ago
Hey, I'm fine with people criticizing stealing if they're against it on principle.
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u/yodimboi 13h ago
It's like those people who LOVE "supporting" small businesses. If your local mom and pop shop is better for you, either in terms of service or prices, of course, choose that, but lets let's not act like these people aren't shitty capitalists as well. People who work under them often have significantly worse experiences, in terms of pay, work hours (paid and unpaid), job benefits, and overall treatment. Art shouldn't be gatekeeped behind a paywall to begin with.
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u/THE___CHICKENMAN 17h ago
You can't just say two things are the same just because they are similar. Not every developer is the same. And money doesn't have a set value. $30 is worth a lot less to someone who has millions. If you consider the morals of companies, that also changes it. They just aren't the same thing. Some piracy isn't even legally punishable.
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u/Jackie_Rabbit 17h ago
Back when cuphead released, taxes were so bad for online purcheases in my country that I had to pay over triple the price for steam games, so I pirated it. A friend went on and on about how I was literally ruining the devs life all while this mfer had terabytes of movies on harddrives bc he had a personal vendetta against hollywood. Also he breeds pugs so hes a horrible person just for that
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u/VelociraptorPirate 13h ago
Fucking scumbag dog breeders creating ever more abominations that have been trait-selected into little brittle boned mounds of anxiety and respiratory issues. If there is an afterlife, the judgement will not be good for those people.
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u/Effective_Interest_7 16h ago
The fact you open with the "always choosing free" thing without even saying you mean just digital things makes me think you have a skewed sense of theft in the first place. I mean, "literally" and "unconditionally" leave little to imagine. Like, do you pirate games that put proceeds to charity? Does it apply to irl, like a laptop is free until its owner comes back? Do you often shoplift? Would you download a house? Steal candy from babies? Do you totally skip your part of the bill at restaurants?
I have many questions about where this whole free thing starts and ends for you, completely regardless of the whole digital piracy thing. Literally unconditional?
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u/AvailableWord6908 14h ago
I've spent the last year working full-time to make an indie game. I depend on the income to feed my family. If you pirate my game without paying me for my work, you can go fuck yourself.
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u/Greatest_slide_ever 12h ago
I get what you feel but have you considered that not all (often most) pirates would pay for the game if pirating wasn't an option? They just wouldn't play.
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u/levus2002 13h ago edited 13h ago
I don't care what others do. Gabe was right saying its not a pricing issue but a service issue.
I can easily buy games from 1 place so i buy games.
Books and movies are spread all over the place and i would need to deal with a mix of shipping, streaming services, langauge differences and whatever the fuck else and i'm supposed to pay on top of that?
Or i could just download any book from ***** archives for free.
Edit: if i really like a product i pirated i subscribe to the author's patreon though. Again not pricing but a service issue. Patreon is easy to use
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u/Porlarta 13h ago
I mean i at least can respect that you are honest about the fact your a theif.
I agree that its incredibly obnoxious for people to pretend they have some moral high ground because they steal from Microsoft, then piss and moan about evil Microsoft closing studios and laying people off.
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u/Hot_Royal_4920 12h ago
The big distinction is that digital piracy is not the same as stealing, as there is no tangible loss for the other side.
Saying that usually ends up in discussion. Which usually evolves into flinging shit at eachother.
And all of this is missing the point of why piracy happens - it is a service problem. And sometimes a pricing problem.
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u/Pretend-Asparagus461 11h ago
I used to pirate all the time until I got a way to spend money digitally so now I really only pirate if the game isn’t on steam
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u/thecoletrane 11h ago
“Why do people say it’s ok to shoplift from Walmart but get mad when I steal the hand knit clothes from the old ladies at the farmers market?”
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u/AffectionateForce979 10h ago
If you're gonna try to paraphrase at least come up with something that would actually be worth stealing.
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u/thecoletrane 10h ago
Seems like not valuing the work of independent artists is a common theme with you huh?
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u/AffectionateForce979 10h ago
I do value the work of independent artists, I just don't wanna pay for it the same way I don't wanna pay for anything else.
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u/thecoletrane 10h ago
Oh so you’re just selfish and immoral in general? I mean points for self awareness I guess
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u/AffectionateForce979 10h ago
The only value money has is how it serves as means to an end. If I can get to the end without the means then it's a net positive for me.
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u/thecoletrane 10h ago
Yeah exactly. We’re saying the same thing here. Your only concern is how you are affected. That has been obvious. Like I said, selfish and immoral. What’s the disconnect here?
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u/AffectionateForce979 10h ago
How much do indies lose to piracy?
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u/thecoletrane 9h ago
No idea. But why are you worried about justifying it now? We already established it doesn’t matter to you. Means to an end and if it’s good for you that’s what matters right?
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u/AffectionateForce979 9h ago
I'm not justifying myself, I'm justifying the worry other people seem to have that pirating indies has some sort of significant negative consequence.
If it doesn't have negative consequences then there isn't even a problem, people just dislike pirating indies on principle.
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u/Axel-the-Sage 10h ago
Stealing from corporations and the uber rich is good, stealing from your fellow proles is bad. Simple as.
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u/Competitive-Hair6294 10h ago
Because million dollar companies make millions of dollars daily and don't need any one specific purchase as much as a much smaller developer,
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u/StressedtoImpress19 10h ago
Pirate Spore from EA because EA sucks and have a shitty DRM ✅️
Pirate a game from a small indie developer cause you dont want to pay for it ❌️
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u/SeaDragonfly1831 9h ago
Dog you have no room to talk about this just stfu😭
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u/AffectionateForce979 8h ago
No? You can't silence me, I can say whatever I want.
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u/SeaDragonfly1831 8h ago
Oooohhh your words are so powerful! Speak your truth, thief!
The point was that this post is fuckin stupid coming from someone like you lol
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u/AffectionateForce979 8h ago
That's your own opinion, disregarded by me.
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u/SeaDragonfly1831 8h ago
Well...opinion is a bit of a stretch when faced with the net 0 upvotes and 150 comments on the post lmao
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u/AffectionateForce979 8h ago
I don't care, Reddit upvotes are non-reliable. It doesn't make me wrong.
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u/SeaDragonfly1831 6h ago
Yeah dude go post this on every social media platform on burner accounts I'm sure the reception will be much warmer other places lol
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u/Cnumian_124 18h ago
Which is worse, stealing from a large supermarket chain or stealing from a little privately owned neighborhood shop ran by a couple of people?
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u/dtalb18981 14h ago
I mean just dont steal?
Its not something thats forced on you its something you choose to do
What even is this example
Theft is bad
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u/Cnumian_124 6h ago
That's such a lazy way to think.
Yes technically stealing is "bad", but there are people that do it out of necessity, which changes the whole perspective, something that neither you or op seem to wanna get.
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u/Blakeyo123 18h ago
"If you want it, just take it" nah they're right to criticize you lmao. Creators aren't your personal clowns you get to steal from at will, you deserve the shaming.
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u/AffectionateForce979 18h ago
You can only act like this if you're not ok with piracy on principle.
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u/VaporProof 18h ago
No you can definitely be ok with stealing from people who are awful and not be ok with stealing from people that are cool. You don’t have to be absolutist about it all.
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u/Blakeyo123 18h ago
It is like shoplifting from Walmart vs robbing someone's apartment. Both are stealing. One is markedly worse
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u/VaporProof 18h ago
Yeah absolutely. But also I personally don’t think piracy is equivalent to stealing.
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u/Blakeyo123 17h ago
It's certainly something. It's enjoying the fruits of someone's labor without them being compensated for it in the way they are presumably asking. Sure entertainers do this because they are passionate and frankly, some people just can't afford to pay for entertainment all the time. Emulate that game, watch a used copy, whatever but entertainers should be able to pay the bills at the end of the day.
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u/No-Alternative4612 17h ago
So if i think most indie devs are insufferable losers I can pirate their games?
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u/VaporProof 17h ago
No it’s a power thing
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u/No-Alternative4612 17h ago
Neither the big dev nor the indie dev has any power to stop be from pirating games lmao
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u/VaporProof 17h ago
That’s true, but one has the power to not be affected
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u/Blakeyo123 17h ago
You can pirate anything regardless of what I think. Won't stop me from thinking
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u/AffectionateForce979 18h ago
Well, that's not really a mindset I'm into, it creates this metric of people having to "deserve" things.
I don't think anyone "deserves" anything, people just get to have things regardless of if they "deserved it" or not.
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
What are you basing that on? If someone walked into your house and stole your stuff you’d be fine with it then?
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u/AffectionateForce979 18h ago
I wouldn't, but anyone can steal and get away with it if they're good enough at it.
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
Well yeah, anyone can do literally any crime, or indeed anything possible, if they’re good enough at it.
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u/AffectionateForce979 18h ago
And digital piracy requires minimal skill and has minimal to no repercussions.
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u/Blakeyo123 17h ago
Very telling. You do things you know are immoral because you can get away with them. You just don't like to be shamed for your actions. Go ahead and pirate indie creators, you're just gonna have to accept people calling you out for it!
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u/AffectionateForce979 17h ago
You can only criticize piracy if you're against it on principle.
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u/WolverineComplex 18h ago
Well if everyone did it then there would be no more new content created. I see it a bit like littering - one person doing it doesn’t necessarily create a problem, but if everyone thought like that then we all live in a shithole.
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u/AffectionateForce979 17h ago
I know for a fact that everyone wouldn't think like me, that's why I don't feel like I should hold some sort of "responsibility" for it (littering is bad for the enviroment though).
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u/VaporProof 18h ago
I don’t even want to argue with you, you have the absolute funniest possible take on this, I love it.
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u/gaom9706 18h ago
Do you hold this same standard for games made by large companies? Because there's no reason you shouldn't.
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u/Prestigious_Cat_9486 18h ago
It's actually been shown piracy boosts sails of music books games ect or doesn't affect them at all I guess most people want to try out the product before paying
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u/No-Alternative4612 18h ago
It has not, as i recall. It's been shown that there's a correlation, but it should be blindingly obvious that this isn't causal.
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u/junker359 18h ago
The EU study you're referring to was a lot more nuanced than "piracy is at worst neutral for developers."
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u/zerobrine6 18h ago
Just buy the game and if you dont like it refund it
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u/Far-Difficulty3213 18h ago
Refunding games hurts indie publishers a lot more than pirating them. That's revenue that they had that is suddenly forced to be paid back.
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u/Mochi_trigonometry 14h ago
Piracy is a vehicle for reappropriating the means to media accessibility. Means testing what media someone Should or Shouldn't have access to, regardless of income or platform availability, handicaps the philosophy. Everything or nothing.
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u/_furry_rp_guy_ 17h ago
OP is the kinda person who'd be in the government and ruin their own country You greedy, immoral little shit
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u/feliwellie 18h ago
most people think piracy is okay for large games/movies because the corporations are already rich lol, they dont lose anything with you not paying for them. for smaller, indie games, every purchase matters, though some indie game devs have said theyre okay with their game being pirated so its a strange issue.
basically its a "only steal from the people who can afford to be stolen from" situation