r/gadgets • u/diacewrb • 11d ago
Transportation UK soldiers could get paragliders to drop behind enemy lines
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgxvj7m41no•
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u/MyAccountWasBanned7 10d ago
So... paratroopers? Things that have existed since the early 1900s?
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u/Ballbag94 10d ago
Not really, paratroopers jump with parachutes
Paragliders are similar, yet distinct
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u/cloud7100 10d ago
Operation Market Garden. UK glider infantry attacked Nazi-occupied Netherlands with hundreds of unpowered gliders.
It’s an old idea using modern tech.
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u/Neon_Moon_NZ 10d ago
So that's where the name of the "Market Gardener" melee shovel for Soldier in Team Fortress 2 came from!
Soldier uses their rocket launcher fired at the ground to jump then drops on enemies and whacks them with the shovel lol
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u/ExoatmosphericKill 7d ago
Taking things a bit further, these are powered paragliders (or paramotors) that use two stroke or electric motors of about 15-40hp to go along.
As someone that has one it's a weird choice militarily, the unmanned one is an interesting concept though.
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u/Few_Advisor3536 10d ago
The main reason paratroopers are sorta obsolete for modern armies and anti air capabilities have gotten to the point that its far too dangerous for little gain. Paratroopers are for getting to hard to reach places or setup forward of the main force and hold a zone until the rest catch up. I dont see these paragliders as useful. Being in the air without an option to bail, whilst not being able to defend yourself in full view to be spotted isnt really selling the idea.
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u/flyingtrucky 10d ago
They would have been a lot more useful 5 years ago when everyone was all in on missile based air defense, but now everyone is switching back to gun systems which would shred them.
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u/The_Webweaver 10d ago
Paramotors might be more doable, at least in special forces contexts where you can't land a helicopter to retrieve them. They're small on radar and fly far enough from the ground that they don't have the kind of acoustic signature that drones or jets have.
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u/Marston_vc 10d ago
Paragliding is distinctly different because of the glide ratios.
Theoretically, a plane could release you 15+ miles away from where the soldier intends to go. Which may be the difference between safe and not for the aircraft.
The range could be significantly increased if you’re willing to use a paramotor. Which would likely be far less likely to be detected with radar since the profile is so small. Though idk the specifics on that sort of thing. But a paramotor dropped off at altitude could probably do a mission 50 miles behind enemy lines and also be able to fly back out.
Insanely dangerous. An enemy drone could fly right up to you. But probably doable in the right conditions.
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u/Commercial-Co 10d ago
I feel like in the drone warfare era, a paramotor would be easily detected. They can already detect certain drones. Only a matter of time before they can detect everything especially with ai learning
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u/other_usernames_gone 10d ago
Much harder to detect a paramotor than a plane though.
Plus I imagine a paramotor is harder to get a missile to lock to, harder to justify the cost of a missile too.
Might fit into the gap of too high and fast for a drone and too low priority for a missile.
There's risk of course but there's risk in everything in war.
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u/Dpek1234 10d ago
I disagree with both
The only thimgs intercepting either paragliders or paratroopers are drones already in the air
And the anti drone defences arent as good as the othe rguy thinks
Missile lock is not likely to be relevant, manpads arent exactly the most commen thing and people arent carring that many
Also the people shooting the missiles arent justifing the cost
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u/Marston_vc 10d ago
The more I think about it the more merit it seems to have. There are electric paramotors now. They have about 1 hour of flight time. With batteries and carbon composite, you could remove most of the metal from the paramotor and thereby minimize the chance of early detection.
If you’re being dropped off at altitude by a plane at 10,000 ft, you could easily get 25-30 miles behind enemy lines and have enough juice to make it back home.
The main issue with paramotors is that they’re heavy and you need a clearing space to land in. And just because you’re unlikely to be detected with sensors doesn’t mean you can’t be seen. But all the same, it’s an interesting thing I could imagine being used.
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u/other_usernames_gone 10d ago edited 10d ago
Per the article they have a 200 mile range when launched from the ground. So 100 mile round trip. I'd imagine its further if launched from a plane.
I can definitely see them having a niche.
Edit: not sure if you can launch a paraglider from an aeroplane but im sure someone will try it.
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u/other_usernames_gone 10d ago
the only things intercepting either paragliders or paratroopers are drones already in the air
Difference is with paratroopers you need to fly a big plane to drop them off that could be spotted and shot down.
Im not sure even a drone in the air could catch up to a paraglider. Drones can't fly very high and are roughly the same speed as a paraglider.
Not many people carry manpads but they're becoming more common, if no-one has a manpad then you just do whatever you want and the whole conversation is moot.
The US doesn't need to justify the cost but smaller armies definitely do. If you have one manpad do you use it to blow up one of the 12 guys on paragliders or save it for a bomber? Do you spend one of your 12 interceptor missiles to shoot down one dude on a paraglider or save it for a missile? Will a missile even lock onto a target as small as a paraglider?
Do you scramble jets for the paragliders or for the bomber? If you only have one jet free because the others are doing other stuff.
You blow up a c130 early enough you kill all the paratroopers and destroy a $100 million aircraft. You blow up a paraglider and you only kill one of them.
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u/Dpek1234 9d ago
Im not sure even a drone in the air could catch up to a paraglider. Drones can't fly very high and are roughly the same speed as a paraglider.
The cheaper sting style drones already go at speeds over 300km
Jet pwoered onea are faster
The US doesn't need to justify the cost but smaller armies definitely do. If you have one manpad do you use it to blow up one of the 12 guys on paragliders or save it for a bomber? Do you spend one of your 12 interceptor missiles to shoot down one dude on a paraglider or save it for a missile? Will a missile even lock onto a target as small as a paraglider?
I meant the individual
As in the guy carring the the manpad in that exact moment (such things are suprise raids)
And no you arent downing a bomber with a manpad, modern bombers are either stealthy or cruise missile carriers
Eitherway, flighting too high up to be targeted
Do you scramble jets for the paragliders or for the bomber? If you only have one jet free because the others are doing other stuff.
That entire situation seems extremely both unlikely and non realistic
If you know where they are then they are fucked, they are human and presumable going behind enemy lines
And a fighterjets is unironicaly a horrable tool for the job, unless they have anti drone munition may as well not bother
You blow up a c130 early enough you kill all the paratroopers and destroy a $100 million aircraft. You blow up a paraglider and you only kill one of them.
This is attempting to counter an arguement i havent made
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u/other_usernames_gone 9d ago
I'm not saying they're invulnerable, if there's an anti aircraft gun everyone in a paraglider is fucked. But thats why you use intelligence of the area and soften the area beforehand.
Its more they just stress logistics of anti aircraft weapons far more than a smaller number of planes/helicopters.
Most countries militaries are way smaller than the US, with much worse logistics, especially in the middle of a war against NATO.
NATOs entire doctrine is about getting air superiority fast. See the US Iran war, the US got basically total aerial superiority within a few days.
If you have a manpad and know you're not getting a new one, you can't call for a new one because there arent anywhere near enough to go around and the depo got bombed yesterday. Are you using it on one guy? Or will you just try spray and praying with your rifle instead? Or just hope he's not heading for you and pretend you didn't see it. Saving your one manpad for a helicopter.
Tbf shooting down a c130 with a manpad would be difficult but manpads increasingly have more and more range. Massive pinch of salt but iran claims to have shot down a c130 with a manpad (with no evidence). I was using it as a like for like example, if you're not using paragliders you're using paratroopers or helicopters for the same goal. A c130 would more be in the use a ground to air missile range, but thats not something you'd use for
Most countries have single digit numbers of fighter jets ready to go. Libya has 20 fighter jets total. Of those roughly a third are actually ready to fly because of maintenance cycles so lets call it 7 active fighter jets. This is before NATO blows half of them up on the ground.
If the raid is coordinated with a bombing run somewhere else, and you don't have any anti aircraft guns in the area because they've all been blown up. Do you commit a fighter jet to one guy on a paraglider or just trust the people on the ground to shoot him once hes landed? Like you said a fighter jet isn't really the tool for the job, so you likely just let it through even if you spot it on radar. I used fighter jets as an example because if you dont have anything anti aircraft on the ground already you need to send a fighter/helicopter if you want to destroy the paragliders.
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u/Doylio 10d ago
British Paratroopers used gliders in World War 2 as part of the airborne
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u/Marston_vc 10d ago
A glider is different from a paraglider. But yes
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u/phire 10d ago
And those WW2 gliders didn't glide very well.
They were towed more or less all the way to the drop zone by other aircraft (usually bombers). It's best to think of them as single-use cargo aircraft, that just so happened to depend on another aircraft's engines. Some of the largest cargo aircraft of the era were single-use gliders.
These paragliders are quite different.
Especially since they are planning to equip them with a paramoter, making them powered again. With a bit of care, the radar signature will really low, allowing for long-distance stealth insertions.•
u/Tremoneck 10d ago
Paragliders are not designed for deployment in the air.
A Parachute deploys in slowly. There is even a piece in the ropes slowing the rate of opening.
Hell, even the rescue of paragliders is not supposed to be opened in free fall. If your gliders gets destroyed you throw it immediately.
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u/deepbluemeanies 10d ago
This is the tactic Hamas used to infiltrate Israel …
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u/JensonInterceptor 10d ago
Specifically one music festival
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u/PITCHFORKEORIUM 10d ago
Nova Festival is the main one, where Palestinian Islamic terrorists raped, butchered, slaughtered hundreds (44 victims kidnapped).
The victims were mostly ravers (and includes fellow Brits), and you're right, multiple of the terrorists came by paraglider.
There was also Psyduck festival where Palestinian Islamic terrorists killed 17, and at least one terrorist approached by paraglider, but I don't think it's publicly known how many of the terrorists that actually attacked that festival came by paraglider (as by the time they reached the victims, the terrorists were on foot or in motorized vehicles).
Also worth noting that not all the Oct 7th terrorists were Hamas. There were other Islamic terrorist organisations such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and thousands of opportunistic unaffiliated Gazans who joined the invading horde to rape, butcher, loot, slaughter and kidnap.
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u/Ludwig234 10d ago
It happen just a few years ago. Seems odd to describe it like it's an historical event from 60 years ago or whatever.
What is even the relevance about an article paragliders? Isn't the British army allowed to use paragliders because of October 7th?
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u/PITCHFORKEORIUM 10d ago
Seems odd to describe it like it's an historical event from 60 years ago or whatever.
Okay?
What is even the relevance about an article paragliders?
The relatively recent high profile examples of the use of paragliders are relevant to an article about the British army possibly using paragliders in future.
Isn't the British army allowed to use paragliders because of October 7th?
Quite the opposite, they may prove to be very effective. It seems to have been effective for the Palestinian Islamic terrorists, for sure.
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u/Crepo 10d ago
I've never heard Palestinian typed with a hard P before. Transparent fuck, get bent.
Holy FUCK. Check their comment history:
Israel are only in Gaza coz thousands of Gazans formed an Islamic horde that invaded Israel to rape, butcher, slaughter and kidnap
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u/xzxfdasjhfhbkasufah 10d ago
What is wrong with capitalising the letter P?
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u/Crepo 9d ago
"Hard P" means it's being being used like a slur might. I was referring to the way the post is dripping with hostility towards Palestinians.
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u/xzxfdasjhfhbkasufah 9d ago
Oh lol I thought "Hard P" meant "capitalised P". I've not heard of this term before, it must be an American thing.
I don't agree that he used a slur, but thank you for explaining what Hard P means.
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u/Child-0f-atom 10d ago
Bark louder for the dog whistle, good boy
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u/PITCHFORKEORIUM 10d ago
You just don't like.hearing the truth, that you support Islamic terrorism despite the fact they'd probably throw you and your friends off a rooftop.
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u/PITCHFORKEORIUM 10d ago edited 10d ago
That isn't relevant to the story, but are you drawing a distinction between the relatively few Palestinian civilians as opposed to Palestinian Islamic terrorists?
Or are you correctly acknowledging that it's so disproportionately Islamic terrorists killed, that it becomes irrelevant to state it?
(Or are you suggesting that all Palestinians are terrorists? Raising your kids to make their highest goal to be killing Jews and martyrdom, is wrong. But does that make most Gazan mothers terrorists themselves?)
Are you using butchered as in cutting body parts off while raping them, or literally cutting them to bits, as Palestinians do? Or just shooting and using missiles and drones and tanks, a la the IDF?
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u/Majestic_Juice5961 10d ago
It is. How many Palestinians were killed raped and maimed by the IDF and settlers before Oct 7th? There was official IDF doctrine to cripple Palestinian kids during cast lead.
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u/SucculentMoose 10d ago
That’s a lot of downvotes just for describing what happened lmao
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u/Cumdrop_WhoreStrife 10d ago
"Describing" and it's just IDF propaganda. How many babies in ovens again?
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u/CatProgrammer 2d ago
What information in that post was incorrect? Or do you just dislike the tone?
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u/Acceptable_Gear_3097 10d ago
Its also worth noting, the US warned Israel about this attack happening a year before the date. Egypt warned Israel days before.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
Israel didn't put any measures in place, despite the intelligence. It's likely they wanted this to justify an incursion.
The US Gov were also warned time and time again by the CIA of Bin Laden's plans to attack the twin towers.
Are both military powers incompetent, or did they benefit from allowing an attack to happen?
Either way, Israel is partly to blame for the attack happening in the first place.
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u/awesomeoh1234 10d ago
Tip, don’t host a rave outside a concentration camp
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u/IdristheInt 10d ago
Gaza had 5 star hotels and exotic car dealers. Hamas ran it into the ground w suicide bombings and a million rockets
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u/Teamprime 10d ago
No evidence of rape
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u/TehOwn 10d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_October_7_attacks
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
A U.N. fact-finding team found "reasonable grounds" to believe that some of those who stormed southern Israel on Oct. 7 had committed sexual violence, including rape and gang rape. But the U.N. investigators also said that in the absence of forensic evidence and survivor testimony, it would be impossible to determine the scope of such violence.
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u/Electronic_Warning49 10d ago
Being paraded nude by fanatics known for raping their own people is I pretty solid indicator that rape was happening.
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u/Due_Degree2802 10d ago
Not no evidence of rape. No evidence of mass rape as method of aggression. Slight, but important distinction. But also worth remembering it’s the Israelis that protested for the rights of their soldiers to rape Palestinian prisoners
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u/GearhedMG 10d ago
Now I know how I can get into Coachella next year for free.
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u/rigorcorvus 10d ago
“Hamas trained paraglider arrested for infiltrating Coachella”
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u/NebulaElectrical1467 11d ago
And get shelled/droned to pieces
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u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net 10d ago
The manufacturers say the titanium-framed machines can be used to enter hostile territory covertly as they are more difficult to detect by radar or sound than traditional aircraft.
It sounds like the manufacturer may have given this more thought than a passing Reddit comment. In general, if something immediately occurs to the layman as obvious, the professional has either considered it or there's a reason for it. If you're a professional in any industry, I'm sure you can come up with some examples in your own field.
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u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net 10d ago
/u/NebulaElectrical1647 I saw your reply to this before you deleted it. While I appreciate your honesty at admitting to forming an opinion (commenting) without even reading the article, I would think long and hard about the kinds of opinions you're developing by taking Reddit (or even news) headlines at face-value, without even reading the article. What kinds of things are you believing that were never true to begin with? What kinds of things is someone (or a bot) encouraging you to believe through vagueries? This isn't a "gadgets" thing, this' relevant for any information consumed in the Internet Age.
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u/Neptunian_Night_Sky 10d ago
Ok, but the people operating the paragliders are NOT titanium framed. Also, a few soldiers operating titanium-framed machines overhead would definitely get picked up by radar.
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u/Minimum-Web-6902 10d ago
Yeah like the F-22 and no backup oxygen system at first. Proffesionals knew better !!
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u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net 10d ago
In the sentence:
In general, if something immediately occurs to the layman as obvious, the professional has either considered it or there's a reason for it.
What do you suppose the clause "in general" means?
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u/other_usernames_gone 9d ago
Also there is no way any layman looked at the f22 and went "that thing definitely needs a backup oxygen supply" until after the incident that highlighted it was missing.
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u/wolacouska 10d ago
Exactly, that’s what I said about the F-35 and Ocean Gate. Let the business majors cook.
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u/YuenglingsDingaling 10d ago
Stockton Rush wasn't a professional. Actual pros told him it was dangerous and gonna kill people.
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u/wolacouska 10d ago
You wouldn’t know that from the guys selling it or the media hype.
I’m just saying don’t blindly trust everything just because someone convinced a government to buy it, or because “the engineers must have thought of that!” Even when they do it doesn’t always make it to daylight until it’s too late.
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u/Beneficial_Company51 10d ago
Classic F35 FUD. "I saw a headline that an F18 shot it down in a simulation 🤓️"
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u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net 10d ago
In the sentence:
In general, if something immediately occurs to the layman as obvious, the professional has either considered it or there's a reason for it.
What do you suppose the clause "in general" means?
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u/qwogadiletweeth 10d ago edited 10d ago
I doubt they would glide into somewhere where that would happen and the enemy is expecting them. It would be quiet and at night.
Edit: I’m pretty confident the British army with all its long history, have considered the risks. They might be underfunded but they are still amongst the best and most innovative in the world. Radars can not detect drones with stone cloak. I’m sure something similar would be applied to this.
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u/AlcibiadesTheCat 10d ago
How bad do you think early warning radars are?
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u/lemlurker 10d ago
Pretty bad when it comes to non radar reflecting cloth and small targets. That's kind of the point
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u/other_usernames_gone 10d ago
Depends who you're fighting.
Terrorists arent going to have early warning radar.
Paragliders are also pretty small and difficult to show up on radar. Guess it depends how good their radar is.
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u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net 10d ago
Israel has the best radars that American dollars can buy, and they still got 720 no scoped by less advanced versions of these.
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u/shinysideup_zhp 11d ago
Right?
“Hey look slow moving parachute. Not a downed aircraft in sight. Target acquired.”
Also, low level night time operations. No thanks.
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u/BorderKeeper 10d ago
They are essentially stealthy and look very much like a big bird on radar. Also look at the Taliban and how they used them.
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u/Zubon102 11d ago
Well, it worked for Hamas to attack that music festival... So I guess they learned something.
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u/costafilh0 10d ago
They could also get wing suits.
Also get jetpacks.
They could also get mini submarines.
And a bunch of other cool stuff.
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u/Balindrum 10d ago
To be fair they already use wing suits, and the navy already uses jetpacks and mini subs.
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u/Bitterbluemoon 10d ago
Well this went great during operation Market Garden, didn’t it 😏
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u/Traditional_Wafer_20 10d ago
I would argue that it went great. But setting that "reinforcements and supplies will never be moved to another drop point" was entirely stupid when radio already existed.
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u/Infamous-Arm3955 10d ago
Unless you're in a spiral this is the slowest target practice the enemy is ever going to get.
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u/BorderKeeper 10d ago
You can learn paragliding in two weeks of training, but it takes years to practice. You are at the mercy of the wind and turbulence requires active corrections. Source: Am a paraglider. Good luck to them though it’s a fun sport, albeit a bit dangerous.
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u/StewPorkRice 10d ago
How about we just don't fucking go to war?
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u/Commander-Tempest 10d ago
Agreed the only wars that should happen is in video games from now on.
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u/rematched_33 10d ago
Not like paratroopers are a new concept, this is just the next step. Some of you guys need to go watch Band of Brothers.
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u/FridaysMan 10d ago
Its not even the next step. Gliders we're used on d day.
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u/rematched_33 10d ago edited 10d ago
True, I was thinking more of the powered paragliders. Either way the perception seems to be that Call of Duty invented parachuting into warzones.
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u/FridaysMan 10d ago
I love the pegasus glider missions. 5 of 6 landed within a short walk of target and the full operation was done in 10 minutes with 181 airborne troops.
Incredible coordination.
Now imagine that with ac130s dropping paragliders that can coast above clouds and then have unpowered flight in near perfect silence.
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u/CaligulaQC 10d ago
Maybe someone should give them a calendar? Or a quick google search of what drones can do now… and radar.
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u/Anthromod 10d ago
China has reportedly trained up thousands of their special forces to do this, as part of their Taiwan invasion plans.
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u/digiorno 10d ago
There is no way that they don’t already have paragliders. Training for that has been standard for at least 40 years.
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u/AliceLunar 10d ago
I don't see how soldiers doing anything behind enemy lines is valid with current drone warfare
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u/Anthropic_Principles 10d ago
Lifted straight from William Gibson's Neuromancer - Operation Screaming Fist
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u/soulsteela 10d ago
These are what you want, currently being used by French special forces.
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u/lawman479 10d ago
That is massively cool and absolutely terrifying at the same time. I can see a squad coming over a mountain top firing at the enemy… but then I can also see them getting picked off easily. 😆
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u/mangalore-x_x 10d ago
Why does that remind me of a rather blunt German WW2 veteran story who complained about the war: "To Russia they brought us by train, but home I had to walk all the way!"
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u/America-always-great 10d ago
They are doing that because there is no budget for real
Military equipment
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u/sacklunchbaby 10d ago
These are very loud and also VERY slow, even more so with a Soldier in full kit.
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u/osi_layer_one 10d ago
good to see the UK is keeping options open for invading the US...
/s but not really...
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u/CelebrationFit8548 10d ago
The engines would make noise, they used hang gliders in 'Sky Riders' and or could also consider 'jump suits' for silent infiltration, otherwise HALO.
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u/ReporterOther2179 9d ago
The things are quite noisy, think lawnmowers in the sky. I suppose they could be better muffled, or go electric.
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u/Milo-Parker- 9d ago
Could the paratroopers use these from cargo planes? If so it might make conventional air assaults more viable as it would be harder to shoot down the transport planes at standoff range, in the same way heavy bombers now mostly fire cruise missiles at long range
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u/triadwarfare 9d ago
Feels like a great way to get your soldiers easily encircled and killed. It'll probably work in the first attempt like how Russians snuck through the gas pipelines to surprise Ukranians but once the novelty's off, it'll start to incur casualties.
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u/xenophon57 10d ago
I'm just imagining a drone coming up and using its rotors to snip the parachute lines one at a time.
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u/tamomaha 10d ago
interesting. maybe they should start with the enemies invading their own country before they branch farther out
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u/LowDrag_777 10d ago
I don’t know and mean no disrespect. But does the UK even have troops that do these types of engagements?
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u/Active-Conflict-8888 9d ago
The British Army has an entire air assault brigade who currently operate using transport helicopters.
Very few countries in the world operate similary sized or well equipped formations of that type and they are arguably the best trained.
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u/[deleted] 11d ago
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