UK begins talks to rejoin EU security missions after Brexit

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 20h ago

UK just rejoin the EU fully already

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u/CJKay93 United Kingdom 20h ago

It's just not going to happen for as long as the UK would be forced to accept the Euro, and with a potential Reform government in a few years' time I'm not entirely convinced you will want us back anyway.

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u/ExcellentHunter 19h ago

You can deter euro acceptance perpetually, look at Poland, 22 years and still no euro. Not even in plans

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u/Bonzidave 19h ago

If adopting the Euro isn't a requirement in reality, then why is it a requirement in fact?

The point is, any referendum on rejoining held within the UK will bring up this point. I think if the EU isn't going to enforce it on it's existing members, then it shouldn't be part of the entrance criteria at all.

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u/Hussor Pole in UK 19h ago

You have to accept to switch to the euro, but switching to it actually has requirements which you can avoid meeting on purpose.

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u/dragodrake United Kingdom 18h ago

That in a nutshell is why the UK was never entirley comfortable in the EU - that sort of attitude rubs our national character the wrong way.

If adopting the Euro is a requirement of joining, it will be seen as an non-negotiable thing we would have to actively work towards immediately, because why else would it be a requirement?

The idea that you would join with the express intention of gaming the rules is mad. But thats more or less what keeps the EU spinning.

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u/Gentle_Snail 18h ago

It definitely feels dishonest.

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u/theproperoutset United Kingdom 17h ago

We went fully in on open borders with Eastern Europe, we put the ECHR into domestic law which meant we had a much harder time deporting people. We were also very lax with employment checks and exit checks don’t exist to this day.

Everyone else gamed the rules like you’re ‘supposed to’ which really soured the UK view on the EU and led to Brexit. Our fault for taking everything literally I guess.

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u/Snappy0 16h ago

The UK was led by hardcore EU-philes like Blair and Major. It was in their interests to try and lock the UK into the EU. The UK has a long history of Euroscepticism and they tried to do anything to secure the UK in the EU. Ironically, their hardliner approach was largely the cause of Brexit. Blair famously flung the doors open to Eastern Europe, years before he even had to (7 years too early in fact). For no reason other than line must go up and giving the UK cheap labour no long term gain.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 10h ago

Russia was playing games with eastern Europe? In 2000 they already tried to cut off Ukraine from the Brotherhood pipeline network with Yamal-2. We accelerated eastern Europes process, so they don't fall into Russias hands and get further exploited. Polands Yamal-1 deal was already a nightmare for Europe and nearly blew up the entry-exit system for gas, and third party access.

UK was whining around at that time about them not willing to pay eastern Europes damage caused by Germany and Russia. It was always about money. After they joined 2004, UK started to lobby crazy against the EU and money being spend on cohesion policies including eastern countries.

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u/coditaly 9h ago

Led by hardcore EU-philes and yet had secured opt outs across every EU treaty 😂😂

It’s not the hardline approach that led to Brexit, it’s just that Brits are not interested/familiar with the EU. The concept of a united Europe never appealed to the English.

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u/Temporary-Cry-7040 6h ago

You look at the polls for rejoin they show positive numbers but as soon as you start adding conditions that makes us more united with the eu (euro being prime example) that number goes back into the negative. The uk is just more isolationist minded than the rest of the eu.

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u/zakski Commonwealth Of Nations 1h ago

yet had secured opt outs across every EU treaty

Every Country in the EU has opt-outs and exceptions, and rules that blatantly favour them.

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u/simplerisnoteasier 8h ago

No one except Sweden does this. Bulgaria and Croatia very much were on the Euro track before they finally got there.

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u/Due_Ad_3200 England 6h ago

The UK wouldn't be able to meet the entrance criteria even if it tried. Public debt is too high and no one has a way to bring it down enough. France, Italy, and Spain would not be able to join the Euro, if they were not already in.

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u/sblahful 17h ago

It's that the same for every other 'requirement'? Freedom of movement, etc?

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u/TFPaulMorphy 53m ago

There is always the risk that the Eurozone changes those requirements to force the UK to join.

Maybe not right now, but when the Italian debt crisis finally occurs it will be appealing to bring in more countries to share the burden of bailing Italy out.

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u/TheJoshGriffith 16h ago

If adopting the Euro isn't a requirement in reality, then why is it a requirement in fact?

Same reason that the UK left the EU in the first place - pointless bureaucracy, lack of sovereignty, and enforcement of ridiculous laws that nobody ever asked for which stretch far beyond that required for a trade union.

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u/JAGERW0LF 19h ago

“Yeah we’re gonna join you mate, but we’re already lieing to your face about actually following your requirements” that’ll go down well

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u/PoiHolloi2020 United Kingdom 18h ago

You can deter euro acceptance perpetually

And the EU is just going to happily sit back and watch us discuss rejoining in terms of bending the rules from day 1 is it?

And a requirement to join that can be postponed indefinitely is still a requirement to join eventually in principle, and even that's going to be hard for a lot of people to stomach.

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u/Spectanda_Fides France ⚜️ 19h ago

Firstly, Poland joined 22 years ago, the rules have changed, they are much stricter but it is not retroactive for members who have already joined. Secondly, Poland did not leave the EU, if that happened and then Poland sought to rejoin, the Euro would become mandatory.

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u/Rexpelliarmus 16h ago

It was already mandatory when Poland joined.

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u/Spectanda_Fides France ⚜️ 10h ago

It was more lax before. It wouldn't be the same if Poland were to try to join today.

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u/Rexpelliarmus 7h ago

No. You could still indefinitely put it off…

The retirements for joining the Eurozone have remained in place and you can still intentionally fail to meet them.

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u/simplerisnoteasier 8h ago

It’s not too be to be accepted to anyone else here that a new member joins saying they want 5 major opt-outs. They can join or they can stay out.

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u/kowalski_82 8h ago

Exactly this, the sooner people twig on that the EU likes a good fudge to keep thins ticking over the better.

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u/Master_Elderberry275 United Kingdom 8h ago

If that's the case, I don't really see why it should be a problem for other EU countries to give the UK the opt-out, which would make rejoining the EU much more politically acceptable.

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u/A_Sinclaire Germany 19h ago

I don't think this would be an option for the UK. They would have to prove full commitment to the European project if they want to get back in. No special status, no delay tactics would be accepted

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u/Hucaru 19h ago

There is no mechanism for the EU to do this. A country can only join the Euro when it meets certain economic criteria otherwise it would do damage to the eurozone.

When the UK tried to join ERM it crashed out "Black Wednesday" which meant euro sentiment was very low when talks about joining happened.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

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u/A_Sinclaire Germany 19h ago

If the UK doesn't want that, that's fine. But the UK likely will just stay outside the EU as a result. That's all I'm saying.

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u/Common-Method2202 19h ago

oh mb. i thought you were demanding it - sorry

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u/fullpurplejacket 18h ago

Don’t panic, they’ve already put in Farage clauses to any future trade and diplomatic deals afaik, both the Eu And Starmer were shit hot on making sure if either side (mostly the UK) change leadership parties in the future and they decide to fuck the deals off, the UK (or the EU) have to pay reparations for termination of contracts signed.

PS- don’t worry about Farage, he will be lucky to leave this parliament a free man the way it’s going, and Deputy Dick or MadLad Yia are hardly going to be able to carry on the cult without the cult leader.

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u/Snappy0 16h ago

Yeah those clauses aren't worth the paper they're printed on. The UK parliament is supreme and no parliament can bind its successor.

The EU can demand payment but they're unlikely to get it anytime soon.

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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 11h ago

Yeah those clauses aren't worth the paper they're printed on. The UK parliament is supreme and no parliament can bind its successor.

Laws and treaties and agreements can be changed but not without due process, so that's basically an erroneous statement.

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u/Vladimir_Chrootin United Kingdom 5h ago

The due process is called an Act of Parliament; which is why we say that Parliament is sovereign.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 10h ago

Payment will just get extracted by increasing other prices. If the EU wants UK to pay, UK is gonna pay.

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u/Minute-Improvement57 3h ago

That's fine, we'll pay for it by levering an import tax on EU vehicles, dropping military support for eastern Europe and stepping out of sanctions deals so that commodities trade goes via our market. If the EU wants to be a leech, we have salt at the ready.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 3h ago

Go isolationist and see what happens to your economy. Yeah threatening to let Ukrainians die will show these solidary EU countries who is boss. What an awesome display of UK mentality, if you even from there at all and not just trolling.

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u/CJKay93 United Kingdom 17h ago

It doesn't matter what the treaties say, though; in the UK parliament is supreme, and if Reform have a majority in parliament then under UK law they can do whatever they like, and the only recourse the EU then has is to throw its weight around.

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u/Minute-Improvement57 3h ago

Farage clauses

Fortunately (apart from a few europhile fanatics) most people on both sides know those would be a colossally bad idea, because they don't mean "oh no, the UK must be forever be the EU's serf", but an inevitable and swift end to any alliance as it becomes strictly in the UK's interest for the EU to cease to exist.

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u/HotPotatoWithCheese 16h ago

I'm not being funny, but far-right Eurosceptic parties are on the rise all over Europe including in France and Germany. Reform have been on the decline in recent months, but you're always going to have a certain percentage of the population that are too far down the rabbit hole. We can't keep going round in circles and telling ourselves we don't deserve to be in the EU based on the small possibility of something happening in x amount of years. Especially when polls indicate that the majority of the people agree on Brexit being a mistake. This sort of approach is holding us back. The sooner we rejoin the better.

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands 16h ago

as the UK would be forced to accept the Euro

Not necessarily. So long as Denmark retains its opt out, there's no real argument that the UK must cede the pound.
There's lots of ways and means to ensure the UK doesn't do something stupid like this again, but I think making the pound/euro a stumbling block is a mistake.

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u/TFPaulMorphy 50m ago

All it takes is one or two EU countries insisting on it to derail negotiations.

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u/iLaurens 7h ago

I'm confident these opt outs cannot be given again. Those happened in a time when expansion and increase of influence and credibility was needed when the union was in early stages. If you'd allow opt out now you give incentive to existing members to exit and renegotiate on more favorable terms.

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u/jim_cap 9h ago

Every damn day someone spouts this nonsense. No, we wouldn’t be forced to adopt the Euro.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 7h ago

Its a requirement to anyone joining the EU, they commit to use the Euro.

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u/jim_cap 7h ago

We'd be re-joining. Something no member state has done before. Anyone who claims they know for a fact what our accession criteria would be if we re-joined is talking out of their arse; nobody knows. We could keep our opt-outs, since many of them are enshrined in the treaties. We could be forced down a simple Copenhagen Criteria route. We could negotiate opt-outs from there. There's a reason we got them before, and it's far from clear we can't do it again. Stop acting like you know for sure what would happen; you don't.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 6h ago

We would be joining the EU. What are the commitments that new members need to do?

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u/jim_cap 4h ago

Sophistry. You don't know what would happen, and nor do I. Stop insisting otherwise.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 4h ago

I am simply going by the EUs extremely clear requirements for joining the bloc.

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u/jim_cap 4h ago

Sophistry. You don't know what would happen, and nor do I. Stop insisting otherwise.

I'm not responding any more. If you want to sit here repeating the same nonsense as if it's fact, have at it.

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u/ABoutDeSouffle 𝔊𝔲𝔱𝔢𝔫 𝔗𝔞𝔤! 1h ago

It all depends on how hard the UK would bargain. Or the EU - esp. France - on the other side of the negotiation table.

I could see the UK rejoining and getting most of the opt-outs back if the EU really wants you back. It's a negotiation, little is set in stone. OTOH, if France decides to do their thing and block compromise, things would be different.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 49m ago

France, Spain & Greece at the very least. Shit even Sweden is having a pop recently.

The chances of the UK being offered their old deal is virtually nil.

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u/Visceral99 6h ago

Six EU countries do not use the euro and keep their own national currencies.

1Non-Euro EU Countries

Czechia (Czech Republic): Uses the Czech koruna (CZK). Denmark: Uses the Danish krone (DKK) and has a formal legal opt-out from the euro.Hungary: Uses the Hungarian forint (HUF).Poland: Uses the Polish złoty (PLN).Romania: Uses the Romanian leu (RON).Sweden: Uses the Swedish krona (SEK).

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 6h ago

All of them have committed to use the Euro apart from Denmarks opt out.

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u/Visceral99 6h ago

Commitment is one thing, implementation another, which these countries are deferring indefinitely.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 6h ago

That will not fly in the UK. The PM who is proposing to scrap the pound will be eviscerated by the opposition.

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u/Visceral99 2h ago

I don't think the europeans want the UK back anyways tbh. It's comfortable to watch you guys have only yourselves to blame for your woes. The second you rejoin, we will be the scapegoats again. No thank you.

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u/NothingPersonalKid00 United Kingdom 1h ago

Okay thats fine.

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u/[deleted] 8h ago

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u/jim_cap 7h ago

I also heard we'd have to adopt Croatian as our national language, and also that Fern Britton would need to be decimalised.

See? We can all just invent nonsense.

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 16h ago

Damn, you make a good point. Okay join the Eu and keep the pound sterling, surely a deal can be made. As for the reform government, I have no solution for that. It won’t be forever eh

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u/[deleted] 19h ago edited 18h ago

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u/Horror_Detox United Kingdom 18h ago edited 16h ago

It's an issue in that you have to win a referendum, against a public who seem not to want the Euro at all.

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u/madhi19 Canada 15h ago

You fuckers we're already in, and got to keep the pound. You think that should have been a bigger point made during the referendum.

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u/SandAccess 6h ago

"If we leave and then later rejoin we might have to give up the pound" is not a strong pro-remain argument lol

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u/CJKay93 United Kingdom 15h ago

Sorry, but "we get to keep the pound in the EU" is not going to impact people who want to keep the pound out of the EU lol.

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u/SgtFinnish Like Holland but better 18h ago

Sadly I believe that before Reform gets a chance to fully destroy the UK there is no way you can rejoin EU. Before the gammons face real reckoning that arrives from being subjected to their half-assed worldview the idea that the UK can still be relevant as a sequestered island will still be out there. Any time they face an issue in their lives they would blame the EU.

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u/Particular-Bid-1640 20h ago

Here's hoping!

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 16h ago

I and many Canadians are with you!

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u/-Z0nK- Bavaria (Germany) 19h ago

Only after decision making in the EU has been changed from unanimous decisions to qualified majority, please.

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u/ThinkAboutThatFor1Se 18h ago

Didn’t the UK just join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP)?

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u/EpicTutorialTips United Kingdom 15h ago

Yup.

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u/G0DK1NG United Kingdom 19h ago

We’re not that lucky

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 16h ago

Well I believe you can.

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u/legthighkneelover 19h ago

Nah

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 16h ago

Please

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u/DaVirus Wales 16h ago

No thank you. Especially given the direction the EU is going. No metrics show the EU progressing economically any better than the UK, so let's not go back into that mess.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 10h ago

The EU is growing faster than UK? Also the UK is growing passively with the EU and their investment into eastern Europe? UK is in any metric pretty shit. Help to Ukraine they are pretty shit and at Trump level (0,85% of gdp like the US), they paid historically the least into the EU among the big economies. UK is the mess and is trying to rip off their allies.

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u/RoySlaterr 9h ago

They're comparing like for like, UK to France/Germany, not UK to post-soviet rebound growth in Poland, Baltics. The larger countries are net contributers. Also, was everyone this angry with Iceland the other day for not fully joining?

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u/Sea-Feedback-2424 Germany 8h ago

Iceland doesn't share a land border with the EU that tends to be a flashpoint of sectarian violence.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 9h ago

In know that they are cherrypicking economies within the EU, but EUs cohesion policy is about bringing regional differences closer together. UK is comparing against countries, which are part of the EU and share their growth by paying into the EU fund, with the plan to share their economic strength with economically weaker neighbours. With plenty of different intentions. Stability, new stable markets, fight corruption, share debt, gain political power, influence and much more. UK is profiting from all of this as well, but refuses to take part of it and pay threir fair share.

Iceland is an isolated little country completely dependent on fishing, without any real industry at all, which could be antagonizing towards us.

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u/DaVirus Wales 8h ago edited 6h ago

"Pay their fair share" isn't something that exists or matters in global politics I am afraid.

Also, I was in fact comparing the economies the right way, by doing it like for like. That is the opposite of cherry picking data.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 8h ago

"Pay their fair share" isn't someone that exists or matters in global politics I am afraid.

It literally is, when you negotiating with 27 countries as one big block, while we can calculate how much you already profiting by our intertwined economies. Bad faith arguments aren't convincing. Math is convincing. The Math says your support for Ukraine is lacking financially and your track-record of EU payments is poor compared to Italy, France, Germany or any other Net payer in the EU.

No you can't pick an economy with a completely different approach to grow. The goal is to grow as a block, not as individual countries and start trade wars or try to steal each other companies. Or tank the other countries currency to profit from exchange rates or preferable tariffs. It's antagonistic.

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u/DaVirus Wales 7h ago edited 7h ago

That isn't what paying your fair share is. That assumes that someone is paying more because of some perceived entitlement. Cooperation is when everyone works together and everyone wins.

The numbers say that isn't what is happening to the EU. I am very happy not having to deal with Brussels, and this is coming from a EU citizen living in the UK.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 7h ago

The numbers say that isn't what is happening to the EU.

What numbers are you referring to? EU grows faster than the UK, despite them spending billions on poorer economies, investing heavily in their infrastructure, which UK also benefits from and also dealing with COVID and the Ukraine invasion and the supply shortages going hand in hand with it. All while nearly spending nearly twice the money on Ukraine help compared to the UK.

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u/DaVirus Wales 7h ago edited 7h ago

Absolutely it doesn't. I mean, this isn't even up for debate. You can just go on the world bank website and overlay the graphs and see there is no difference lol

Even with Poland pulling up the average due to the incomparable conditions it is going through.

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u/SandAccess 6h ago

pay threir fair share.

This is the main reason the EU desperately wants the UK back lol

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 6h ago

It's more about UK profiting from every payment to the eastern countries the EU did, without lifting a finger, as well as basically siphoning money off the Euro to their own pockets by exchange rates and the tarif advantage they got from the US.

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u/Master_Elderberry275 United Kingdom 8h ago

But the UK wouldn't be an average EU economy; it would be comparable to France or Germany.

And from your argument it sounds like it's a good thing for the UK's economy that it's outside the EU

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 8h ago

It's good for big economies like the UK to exploit their weaker neighbouring economies. What a surprise.

Yeah and the difference in wealth between them and the fact that one country is basically exploiting the other, will probably not cause any problems in the future /s

Oh wait ww1 and ww2 basically resulted from this trade war between european countries? Mmh. Maybe we should join forces and not be antagonistic towards each other.

UK: "Hold my beer."

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u/Master_Elderberry275 United Kingdom 7h ago

I hardly think it's exploitation to trade in a mutually agreed FTA.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 7h ago

I hardly think whatever comes out of Trumps deal is based on exploitation or extortion. Doesn't really show in the signed trade deals in the end, right?

So mutually agreed FTA have to be put in context for us to be able to judge them.

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u/Master_Elderberry275 United Kingdom 3h ago

What does trump have to do with this?

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u/MasterReindeer 6h ago

I'd love that

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u/-ForgottenSoul 3h ago

Honestly why when Germany and France look likely to leave? I guess if we join we could be a leader once they leave?

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u/Spazza42 57m ago

We could but I doubt it would repair the fucking dire relationship the split caused.

We shouldn’t have left, but rejoining won’t achieve anything now either.

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u/HettySwollocks 9h ago

UK just rejoin the EU fully already

Agreed. What a stupid idea that was to begin with - and I voted brexit.

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u/Minute-Improvement57 3h ago

"Canada just join the US fully already"

No thanks.

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 3h ago

Easily the stupidest comment In this thread

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u/searchlinkprofile 9h ago

nah they can fuck off

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u/JAGERW0LF 20h ago

Rather not be the Western Island Province of the U.S.E

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 16h ago

Boooo sod off

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u/JAGERW0LF 15h ago

Why not join the US my friend? It would probably improve your economy, your right next to it and youll get some voting rights! All good right?

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u/Aromatic-Deer3886 Canada 14h ago

Because Canadians are not Americans. We are educated and value things above material worth.

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u/rusty-roquefort France 5h ago

Also, you don't have an entire political movement perpetuating mass school shootings.

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u/diamanthaende 20h ago

I think that our British cousins have gotten a crash course in "the Special Relationship™ not being so special after all" in recent years. I think they are cured of that, at least the majority is....

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u/JAGERW0LF 19h ago

So our answer to one of our allies not being as friendly as we hoped is to be subsumed into the superstate?

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u/diamanthaende 18h ago

Nobody is "subsuming" you, mate. Lay off the Nigel Farage propaganda, you have always been sovereign, otherwise Brexit could not have happened in first place.

If Europe wants to prevail in this era of neo-imperialism and competing superpowers / power blocs, it will have to unite one way or another.

You may be against that and that's ok, but the rest of the world couldn't care less.

If Europe doesn't want to be on the menu, it has to develop into a superpower itself, there is no alternative.

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u/JAGERW0LF 18h ago

Uniting into a federal state IS losing your sovereignty.

Is Texas Sovereign?

Is Quebec Sovereign?

Is Bavaria Sovereign?

Is Hong Kong Sovereign?

Part of further integration is the eventual loss of veto in which case YOUR nation can and will be outvoted. Your country will be forced to accept policies against its will. (Unless it leaves, but then again how long will a more centralised European state be happy with bits of itself being able to break off?)

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u/diamanthaende 18h ago

What you fail to understand is that on your own, your "sovereignty" is worth diddly squat.

You'll be taken to the cleaners by more powerful countries on a regular basis and will have zero say on what powerful corporations have in store for you.

No European country is big / strong enough on its own to prevail in this global power game. The penny will drop eventually.

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u/WhereTheSpiesAt United Kingdom 18h ago

This would make more sense if the combined members of the EU was displaying said strength and yet at every step it isn’t.

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u/diamanthaende 17h ago

The EU is nowhere near being a "federal state" yet, if you hadn't noticed.

Yet, even this oh-so weak EU is setting the standards that the likes of Apple and Google have to follow. In fact, it sets the standards that your very own country has adopted (CE) after the whole "UKCA" fiasco.

It's funny in a way - you are blaming the EU for something that it isn't, yet also blaming it for not being that all conquering federal state you accuse it to be. Schrödinger's Brexit logic.

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u/Free-Flow-8 20h ago edited 17h ago

They should only if they adopt EUR and Schengen else no discussion.

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u/nj813 20h ago

That will never happen

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u/scarab1001 United Kingdom 20h ago

Let's talk to France about fish before writing anything else

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u/Common-Method2202 20h ago

France: Whaat? So you are saying we can't raid and plunder your seas for no benefit towards your nation? How dare you!

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u/coditaly 5h ago

UK: mmmm let me negotiate this from a weaker position by leaving the EU. That will make the negotiations easier for me 🤲

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u/No-Bison-5397 Scotland 14h ago

Yep, fisheries and CAP were absolutely awful. Founding the EU was the best idea the French ever had because if anyone else had done it they would have got to set the rules.

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u/Crypt33x Berlin (Germany) 10h ago

Yes lets talk about a market worth 50million, which completely locks UK out of any politics and which was the reason for them leaving the EU. Smart move.

Bad France. Stop triggering the whiny Islanders.

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u/Minute_Eye3411 19h ago

France mostly fishes far outside of UK territoritial waters though. The Atlantic, Indian, the Arctic, the Antarctic and the Pacific. The fishing dispute is about a handful of fishing ports that do daily (as opposed to several monthly) fishing. They do tend to complain a lot, it has to be said.

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u/erbr 20h ago edited 19h ago

UK will join all kind of EU groups, treaties and currency but still "not be part of EU". It's like that friend that spends the day in your house and sleeps over most of the days but in the end still not part of the family.

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u/sblahful 17h ago

Like Norway?

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u/BarryTGash 18h ago

Europe is larger than the EU. We can, and should, be working together.

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u/mic_hall 11h ago

EU is the 'working together' part of Europe...

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u/DefinitionLogical646 7h ago

People dont seem to understand is. There is the EU and there are some non-EU-states which have some kind of relation with the EU, but there is no other form of political cooperation of a "larger Europe". The UK can be a partner of the EU in any form acceptable for both sides, but stopp trying to make any other "Europe" a thing. It is not. Same goes for Iceland, Norway, Switzerland etc.

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u/DaVirus Wales 6h ago

Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are th exact countries we need to be more like. Not France, Germany and Austria.

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u/Feeling-Medium-7856 2h ago

The Council of Europe is a form of political cooperation of 46 members.

If you're going to hector and patronise other posters, you could have the decency to not be wrong about it.

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u/SandAccess 6h ago

but there is no other form of political cooperation of a "larger Europe"

Except for literally every single international partnership and treaty that isn't isolated to the EU

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u/Common-Method2202 19h ago

Did you forget about countries like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland etc? Must've had your head stuck somewhere to see the UK as the only one wanting a neutral benefit.

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u/Acceptable_Basil9665 17h ago

Did you forget that UK didn't want Norway style deals?

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u/theproperoutset United Kingdom 16h ago

Theresa May did but Boris stabbed her in the back to tear it up and negotiate the crap last minute deal we got.

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u/Common-Method2202 17h ago

The whole premise of Brexit was to avoid paying the EU... Why would the government at the time, that wanted to leave the EU decide to do a half Brexit but still pay the EU? (Conservative government)

We can indeed do it now though because the government in the UK has changed hands to people who have actual brains. (Labour government)

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u/Snappy0 16h ago

Not quite. Brexit was largely about the significant demographic change seen in parts of the UK.

The most pro-Brexit vote area, was an agricultural area which had seen huge numbers of Eastern Europeans move in, and decimate the local agricultural employment, by being willing to work for pennies compared.

Problem is the UK government has long been addicted to migration propping up GDP, so EU migrants were replaced by those from elsewhere instead.

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u/CarrowCanary East Anglian in Wales 14h ago

It's like that friend that spends the day in your house and sleeps over most of the days but in the end still not part of the family.

Country With Benefits.

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u/CharmingJackfruit167 4h ago

Yes. Because they want to avoid two things: open borders (Schengen) and open job market.

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u/legthighkneelover 19h ago

Like Turkey?

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u/MojitoBurrito-AE 18h ago

It's like most of us didn't even want this.

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u/Ilikechocolateabit 14h ago

Meh, not really - this is an area where the EU gets a good deal too

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u/BoringWozniak 20h ago

Maybe the non-fascist bits of the UK and the non-fascist bits of other European countries can form a sort of anti-fascist EU type thing to mutually defend ourselves from the fascists at home, in the east and in the west…

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u/DaVirus Wales 6h ago

My friend... You almost achieved enlightenment there.

It is just you and your neighbours against the state. The is the division.

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u/Aggressive_Chuck 5h ago

By fascism, you mean not wanting to turn your country into Somalia?

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u/Dic_Penderyn Wales 19h ago

I'm getting Deja Vu here. It's like its 1973 again. I remember the time before the EU ever existed, with countries joining the new Common Market for closer European integration. As the years rolled by European countries integrated more and more with each other. It's like it's started all over again, but this time only for the UK, because the others are already fully integrated.

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u/Justnotstressed United Kingdom 19h ago

Good. Let’s get ourselves back in and fully integrated. Let’s undo the shambolic damage that’s been done to our country.

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u/DaVirus Wales 6h ago

Can you point to the damage please? Like, actually numbers, not someone's interpretation of the numbers.

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u/Justnotstressed United Kingdom 5h ago

I just rely on the analysis done by experts.

Give this a read: https://www.nber.org/papers/w34459

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u/DaVirus Wales 5h ago

"we combine estimates using macro data with estimates using micro data collected through our Decision Maker Panel survey"

No thank you. I know how to read numbers, don't need someone to put their spin on things. Specially in economics where setting up experiments is basically impossible.

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u/Justnotstressed United Kingdom 5h ago

“I’m going to ignore expert analysis of data because I don’t like the outcome”

More fool you pal.

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u/DaVirus Wales 5h ago

That is not what I am saying at all. When it comes to economy, everyone can spin it however they like. When you look at the number for the UK and the EU big economies the data does not support any of these conclusions. It cannot be attributed to Brexit.

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u/Justnotstressed United Kingdom 4h ago

So these experts have analysed the data and come to a conclusion, but the data does not support the conclusion reached by these experts?

Keep digging son.

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u/DaVirus Wales 4h ago

Yes, exactly. And if you don't understand how multiple people looking at the same data can give you different explanations, you don't understand the scientific method. And the issue with economics is that you can't test theories against each other easily.

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u/Justnotstressed United Kingdom 4h ago

Oh yeah, I understand that people can interpret data in different ways.

I just think it is outstandingly arrogant to say that these experts are just plain wrong, and the data does not show what they’ve said, because you feel they’re wrong.

They’re experts for a reason, and you’re a nobody screaming into the void on Reddit for a reason.

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u/GreenApocalypse 7h ago

Soon you can go three decades further back!

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u/squeezycheeseypeas 20h ago

Mitigate the damage that the liars and charlatans did little by little

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u/FutureOwl8606 20h ago

👋🇪🇺🥰👍

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u/LatelyPodes 18h ago

I read the first sentence “UK begins talks to rejoin EU” and was like “no way!!! Burnham??!”

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u/Glittering_Win_5085 6h ago

I've always been in favour of us being in the EU, but the comments do show the sort of attitude why it's not so simple. A lot of "they should contribute but have no say" type comments, or be made an example of. What the fuck sort of cultish attitude is that?

Especially from the French. At the end of the day it's de Gaulle that made the British feel unwelcome. Should have been France to leave the EU.

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u/whocares_honestly Nord-Pas-de-Calais (France) 6h ago

You didn't left because you felt unwelcomed.... You just chose to follow guys like Farage or B. Johnson. So cry me river.

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u/Glittering_Win_5085 6h ago

There were a lot of factors. I did not say feeling unwelcome was a factor, let alone the only one.

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u/coditaly 4h ago

So some random comments on Reddit influence your opinion of what do Europeans think of Britain? Isn’t that some sort of racism or whatever

“Ahhh 10 Frenchmen called us xyz hence all Frenchmen HATE us 😭😭😭😭”

What is this?

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u/Shifty_MD 3h ago

It's reddit, mate. Almost every single sub on this site is full of solid gold c**ts with high blood pressure who spend all day arguing. Let's not pretend what you read here is in any way an accurate representation of the real world.

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u/MysteryHarbour 20h ago edited 20h ago

How serious should the EU take these talks when Nigel Farage and Reform UK seem to have a hold on English voters? His rhetoric seems to suggest he would just undo any progress the current administration makes regarding well, anything.

Edit: don’t know why I’m being downvoted for asking a question.

As for the person who said I’m being downvoted because I don’t have a full grasp of the facts, well yeah. I’m Canadian and don’t have a deep knowledge of European politics hence why I asked the question.

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u/BrianB98 20h ago

Europe? I suppose fight fire with fire 🤷 "The UK is in talks over rejoining EU security missions, in a move that would further widen Labour's "reset" in relations with Europe.

The agreement under negotiation could see British officials and experts take part in civilian crisis management operations for the first time since Brexit.

EU is currently conducting 13 crisis management missions from a permanent HQ based in Brussels, as part of its common foreign and security policy.

They span efforts to train Somalian coastguards in tackling piracy, advise border police in Mali, and help Ukrainian prosecutors investigate war crime allegations."

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u/MysteryHarbour 20h ago

Thank you.

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u/BrianB98 19h ago

No bud thank you 🙏 honest question and the most knowledgeable answer here 💯 I'm not even British

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u/Due_Ad_3200 England 20h ago

Andy Burnham is doing better in the polls than Nigel Farage.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/burnham-bounce-continues-public-more-favourable-towards-pm-other-leading-uk-politicians

Given the recent scandals, hopefully Reform are now past their peak.

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u/EpicTutorialTips United Kingdom 15h ago

Give it a year and he's going to be as unpopular as Reeves and Starmer. His track record in cabinet is terrible, and this isn't his first time in parliament - but he sure did spend enough time away from the disaster of his last tenure to allow some memories to forget just how bad he was lol.

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u/paneuropeanism_ Europe 20h ago

a hold on English voters

Farage barely has 20 percent of the vote. 80 percent against him.

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u/Particular-Bid-1640 20h ago

English voters

Reform is also making gains in Scotland and Wales, as much as they'd like to pretend that it's not

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u/Common-Method2202 20h ago

So many gains that they lost the elections? 😂😂😂

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u/Particular-Bid-1640 19h ago

Which ones? They have 17 seats in the Scottish Parliament and 34 in the Welsh Senedd 😂😂😂

Anyone thinking this is solely an English problem is burying their heads in the sand at best, and being deliberately obtuse at worst

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u/TheMysteriousOrganis 20h ago

They have made a 1% real gain in Scotland. Only to be wiped out in the next locals.

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u/Particular-Bid-1640 19h ago

They have 17 seats at Holyrood, 13.18%.

They have 8 in the House of Commons...1.23%

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u/Glass_Pumpkin8805 19h ago

Before Brexit, wasn't immigration the big problem? With great pity, we are witnessing the UK exit from the European community. To this day, I cannot understand the point of view of this decision. I honestly think it was horrible for all Englishmen.

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u/JAGERW0LF 19h ago

We’ve never left the European community. It’s the arrogance of EU-philes and the federalists to assume that EU=Europe and fuck the rest.

For all they sneer at the US they don’t seem to recognise their the same when it comes to other nations in their respective continents

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u/Glass_Pumpkin8805 17h ago

If you leave England for holidays or do business with partners in the European community, you will feel the difference in what was easy and now so difficult, bureaucratic and expensive.

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u/CounterComplex6203 18h ago

hm, not quiet. The EU-philes are quiet friendly to the rest of Europe. Just not to the one country that said fuck you on loop, and still does.

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u/Yuriski United Kingdom 🇬🇧 🇪🇺 19h ago

Half the country, and possibly over half now, also could not understand the decision.

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u/No_Objective006 18h ago

But there was a bus!

News UK begins talks to rejoin EU security missions after Brexit