r/classics • u/Spacemarine1031 • 3d ago
Not going to lie I really don't like the Aeneid
I'm no expert in the classics (let alone Latin classics). But I've read (and loved) the Homer epics and a decent amount of Plato and Aristotle. So after watching Nolan's Odyssey I felt it might finally be time to read the Aeneid to get that texts take on the trojan war. (Fagles translation). I'm interested in Roman history so I know basic background like it was written by Virgil basically to make Augustus happy. Etc.
But I'm having a miserable time.
There are some good turns of phrase but it's a slog. It reads like immature fan fiction to me. Its constant references to Caesar and the coming of Rome is of course the point, but it gets old fast.
Some gripes include: Virgil pointlessly refers to homeric figures just to sort of let the audience soak it in and clap while doing little with these characters. I've physically rolled my eyes at points it's so heavy handed. Aeneas is a boring character so far-too perfect. Anchises dies for no reason except for to give Aeneas a chance to visit Hades.
It feels like cheap propaganda while the Homer texts feels like they deserve their place as almost sacred.
Anyone else think this book is just a slog? Ive considered DNFing but I'm probably going to make it through.
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u/maxx_scoop 3d ago
Ok look I am a Classicist who basically learnt Latin because I wanted to read Vergil and I find this take absolutely hilarious and very valid. First off, yes, it is a HELL of a lot better in Latin. But it's still highly politicized and rhetorically stylized in ways that don't always thrill modern readers. That's fine. I'm sure plenty of people back then couldn't stand it either. You don't have to love everything that's become canonical. I myself hate Aeneas in my heart of hearts, though not half as much as I hate Odysseus. But my god does that Latin hit.
Second, if Vergil is not to your taste (though there's also the Ecologues and Georgics to check out if you're into that sort of thing), I'd suggest giving Ovid a go. The Metamorphoses has been just as influential as the other epics, but for some reason unclear to me gets short shrift in this sub. It's a baaaaanger. Strongly recommend. I'm fond of Raeburn's translation. McCarter's is good too, just a little stiffer. Statius' Thebaid is fun if you have any interest in the Theban cycle, which in antiquity was about as popular as the Trojan myths.
You might also enjoy something like Apuleius, which is difficult to put down, although you do have to buckle up lmao. Heliodorus is also pretty underrated if you want an intricate tangling Homeric-scale narrative in a totally different generic and temporal setting. The novels are mostly extremely fun and accessible for modern readers. Students always really adore Longus. The Reardon Collected Ancient Greek Novels book is incredible, so much packed in there.
But at the end of the day, you cannot go wrong with everything Euripides ever touched, and I say that as a Latinist (many of us are Euripides people...)
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u/MadQueenAlanna 3d ago
I’ve yet to find someone who can’t find something to enjoy in Catullus, vulgar like 16 or as pretty as 64, interesting subject matter and beautiful language, not especially difficult to pick up either IIRC. Since we’re making recommendations I literally cannot ignore my boy
That said perhaps my tastes don’t line up w yours or OP’s, I love Aeneid (book 4 especially…) and Aeneas himself lol
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u/Clickety_Clack4137 3d ago
I agree. Just as a general reader, I really dug Metamorphoses but could not even get through the Aeneid after two attempts.
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u/Dr_Platypus_1986 3d ago
I really, really wish I had this comment to read about 2 months ago...I had no idea that the Reardon Collection existed. So, guess what I did? I had gone down a rabbit hole and discovering the existence of the "Greek Novel" I proceeded to order copies of ALL of them I could find. I spent about $100. As of 10 mins ago, I not only found a copy of the Reardon Collection for $5.51 online, but I also found a free PDF of it. 😆 At least I got some additional introductory and commentary materials with it, I suppose.
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u/Manzanaznam 3d ago
In an era where we’re constantly bombarded by endlessly recycled “Intellectual Property” (e.g. re-adapting Harry Potter as a tv show, etc etc), I wonder if contemporary people
might have an adverse reaction to the Aeneid in a way that people in previous eras might not have. Someone who learned to read the Aeneid in the original Latin while studying at Cambridge in the 19th century wouldn’t have any negative associations with “sequels,” “prequels,” “reboots,” etc.
Obviously it’s a completely different thing, but from our corporately-warped perspective, so many extant classics could be written off as riffs on the “Expanded Olympian Universe.” (“The Orestia—come see the trilogy sequel to The Iliad! This weekend in Athens!”)
Just a half-baked theory I’ve had…
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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 3d ago
I think there’s a lot of that, especially with discussions of “canon” and our need to have one “true” version of a story.
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u/RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS 3d ago
On one hand, that might be true, but on the other, the practice was arguably even more endemic among the ancients. Perhaps there were people groaning "oh, great, ANOTHER take on the Trojan War, haven't had enough of those, have we?" who were simply lost to posterity.
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u/Manzanaznam 3d ago
Haha—only the fan fiction written by larpers and cosplayers like Virgil and Aeschylus survived (kidding!)
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
That seems a fair point to me. I admit I'm probably letting my negative views of many modern things poison my reading
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u/Greek_Arrow 3d ago
Aristotle in the Poetics says that the rest of the trojan cycle produced many tragedies, except the Iliad and the Odyssey, which produced only some. So, if that was the case, then wouldn't more tragedians use the homeric epics as a source for their tragedies? Personally, I'm more inclined to believe that the poet of the Odyssey mimiced the poet of the Iliad, because he liked his poetry. However, a question remains: why was he the only one to compose such a long poem after the Iliad? Maybe he was closer (in a time sense) to the writing down of the epics, so no one else had the chance to compose such a long poem. Also, he could be an aristocratic poet with much free time, so he mimiced the poet of the Iliad (even though there are some moral changes between the Iliad and the Odyssey). However, why the Iliad is so long and not other epics, too? Maybe someone in the area of the poet of the Iliad asked him to compose such a long poem, and then the poet of the Odyssey wanted to mimic him, I don't know.
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u/finstao 3d ago
Response is fair, although I disagree with it. I wouldn’t be so sure Virgil is trying to make Augustus happy, or if he is, that that’s all that’s going on. Virgil is borrowing extensively from Homer, but one way to think about what he’s doing is that he’s writing an epic, while the Homeric epics were originally sung. When you sit down and write an epic, there’s a lot more space for subtlety. One thing to keep in mind is that he’s not just repeating events from Homer, he’s rewriting them for a different context. How might the same myths and stories work out if they’re being deliberately recrafted for the sake of Rome? And is Virgil really just a cheerleader for the Roman Empire? I think Virgil really rewards this kind of slow noticing.
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u/leviticusreeves 3d ago
I always find the back half a slog, but always enjoy Carthage, the Troy flashback, Hades and the island hopping.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
The troy flashback has definitely been my favorite part so far! Rip Dido though.
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u/myaltduh 3d ago
Dido did nothing wrong. Her entire life is being basically a superhuman in the face of adversity as much as Aeneas or Odysseus, and gets completely and utterly screwed over for her trouble because she’s not some deity’s favorite pet human.
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u/DwarvenGardener 3d ago
It was not as consistently enjoyable for me to read as the Iliad but there are certain parts that I’d hold up as equal to anything in Homer’s work and I found Aeneas as a character was the most interesting person out of both stories. Even in the Iliad he’s a stand out. Struggling with loss, trying to put on a brave face and giving up things for others were all far more relatable than the struggles other characters dealt with.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
I'm seeing that I haven't given the character a fair shot so far. This point is taken well
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u/PacinoWig 3d ago
I might enjoy reading Homer more. But I would argue that Homer doesn't give us anything as challenging as the ending of the Aeneid, or Aeneas exiting the underworld through the gates of ivory, which I think of at least once every week.
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u/Careful-Spray 3d ago
The Aeneid is a complex, multi-layered work, but the narrative alone doesn’t as consistently hold the reader’s interest as the story-lines of the Iliad and the Odyssey do, especially in the second half. A large part of Vergil’s art consists in weaving together allusions to and echoes of the literature of the past — the Homeric poems, of course, but also Euripides, Apollonius, earlier Roman poetry such as Ennius and Lucretius and much else. The allusions are embedded in the poem not just superficially but in a way that contributes to and deepens the poem’s meaning. And, as others have noted, Vergil’s dazzling, consummate mastery of the Latin hexameter is really impossible to convey in translation. To be sure, there is a propagandistic element in the Aeneid, but the poem is much more than that — a heroic tragedy in sublime verse.
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u/Bumst3r 3d ago
Respectfully, I don’t think you’re reading any deeper than a surface level.
It’s certainly possible to read the Aeneid as heavy-handed Augustan propaganda. But that is certainly not the only way to read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_School
And Aeneas certainly isn’t a perfect character. I don’t know how you can make it through Book IV thinking that. Or take for example the warning Aeneas receives in the underworld:
>>tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
(hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem,
parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.
How do you reconcile that passage with Aeneas’s decision to kill Turnus, and come away with the opinion that Aeneas isn’t an imperfect character?
The Aeneid is not my favorite Latin text, but it certainly isn’t superficial.
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u/littlemememaid 3d ago
So many people read Aeneas as a "perfect" boring character, which has never been my interpretation, as he has always read as just some man trying to make it through a deeply collectivist society, putting on that dutiful air before he just snaps at the end.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
I think you're right. I am not too proud to say my reading might be superficial and need more depth.
I also think I'm too early to really judge character development too much. Aeneas just landed at the Tiber where I am so I don't think I'm at Turnus yet (a quick Google says that's book 12 and I'm at 7).
But I will say I was entranced by this point in the Iliad. Not so with Virgil. Granted I'm not sure that's a fair comparison
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u/blueb0g 3d ago
You're trying far too hard to read it as a modern story--this is obvious both in your headline post and your reference here to "character development". If you can conceive of it as a much more alien form of storytelling you may have more fun with it; your expectations are getting in the way.
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u/Koulditreallybeme 3d ago
Drafting off this to say the "it's just Augustan propaganda" is a well worn academic trope and while it's not that it isn't, it's very important to remember that Virgil started the Aeneid right after Actium, 3-4 years before Octavian even became Augustus and he died in 19 BC while Augustus would reign over 30 more years.
Virgil didn't have hindsight or perspective at Augustus as an all-time great (greatest?) historical figure, and if anything, like Eclogue 4, he was being prophetic. So while it functioned as Augustan propaganda, saying that was the point is very misleading and a hindsight problem.
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u/WasASailorThen 3d ago
I loved the first half and hated the second.
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u/Dr_Platypus_1986 3d ago
It was kind of the opposite for me. I felt it was a slog to begin with, until it finally picked up. Looking back, there are many iconic moments sprinkled throughout the entire text. Like Hera seducing Zeus so that she and Poseidon could give the Greek army help.
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u/WasASailorThen 3d ago
That’s the Iliad.
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u/Dr_Platypus_1986 3d ago
Yeah, my mistake there. I was talking about the Iliad to another commenter and I guess I got off on a tangent...Actually, I thought the Aeneid was easier to read than the Iliad. But, that could be because I'd already been through the Iliad and Odyssey. The Odyssey was actually the one that was the hardest of the 3 Trojan Epics for me to get into. The first 4 chapters or so, before it actually gets into the fate of Odysseus, ended up being an absolute CRAWL for me. But, it was worth it. Also -it was interesting learn that Homer invented the flashback.
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u/lakonian117 3d ago
I disagree entirely (though you're entitled to your opinion). But I will say, though I read and enjoyed Fagles the first time, I don't think he's the right translator for The Aeneid. It's, to put mildly, clunky.
I just bought Bartsch's translation and I think I'm going to like it a lot more. It runs more like the Latin poem runs.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
I'm seeing from others that translations struggle to encompass the greatness of the Latin. So I'm happy to hear other translations. Also I'm in book 7. So I have a way to go before I pass final judgement.
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u/periphrasistic 3d ago
Aeneas is a “too perfect” character? What the fuck? Your introduction to him is him wishing he was dead, and by the end of it he’s brutally murdering a captive in a fit of rage. The guy is an exhausted, traumatized survivor who wants to lay his burdens down, but can’t for the sake of his son, and once awoken to his duty to Roman manifest destiny, gradually transforms into a monster.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
Didn't mean to piss in your cheerios! Like I said Im not done with the book yet. Others have pointed out how my take wasn't giving the book it's due. Hope you feel better
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u/ba_risingsun 3d ago edited 3d ago
These takes are mostly stereotypes recycling: moaning about "it's derivative" in the most unoriginal ways you can imagine.
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u/altrent 3d ago
Welp, I am having a terrible time finishing the Iliad, and was planning to read the Aeneid next, hoping for a change of pace..
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
If I'm learning anything it's that translations matter a lot. Maybe try another one. And some other comments are bringing up good points on how my view is limited. So don't take my opinion too seriously 😅
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u/Dr_Platypus_1986 3d ago
It gets better as you go on. I don't think it would help anything to jump ahead to the Aeneid next. That's sort of like watching Star Wars: A New Hope, then skipping on to Return of the Jedi. Set a pace of how many pages/minutes per day you wish to read. Stick to it and you will be through the book in a short time. The Iliad is the most difficult of the three, although I also enjoyed it the most. When the battles get going it's some of the most intense bloodshed that I've ever read. And the superhuman powers that the Gods give to their favorite humans are incredible. It's easy to find parallels between the Iliad and modern Marvel movies. Also, try Robert Fagles' translations of the books of you feel bored atm. He includes plenty of blood/guts/brains and ups the ante as far as can be reasonable done, imo.
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u/Same_Winter7713 3d ago
I had a similar reaction when I was a bit younger after having read the Iliad then Odyssey, then trying the Aeneid. I DNF'd it, but I think it'd be a good idea for me to go back soon and try again.
I also don't really share the opinion of the person who blamed capitalism and intellectual property. Maybe there's a smidge of that, but my issue is that: if this is going to be one of the major works of your culture - i.e. Ancient Rome - shouldn't it have its own voice, rather than just imitating the Greeks? What does it say about Ancient Rome that the Aeneid itself is Greek fanfic? I have similar kind of gross reactions to, for example, books like Death in Venice, that seem like they're just trying to shoehorn as many references to ancient Greek literature as possible. It's also why I love American literature; because American literature has its own voice. That doesn't mean references are bad (Moby Dick is an amazing text, even though it so heavily references the Bible, for example), but Moby Dick is also unique and interesting (like, for example Joyce's Ulysses) and not just an obvious retelling of some biblical story.
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u/LoneElement 3d ago
Aeneas is not perfect, he’s a hypocrite
Pay attention to the signs. Aeneas always goes on about how pious he is. Yet there are multiple signs that he is not as pious as he claims to be, like the branch he has to keep pulling at to break free, or the path he chooses in the underworld, or his choice in the very ending
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u/PrestigiousSmile4098 3d ago
I did not enjoy the Fagles translation, but I really enjoyed the Cecil Day-Lewis translation from the 1950's. He did this translation for the BBC (radio), so it was designed to be read aloud.
The ending of the Aeneid is very unsatisfying and you can tell it was unfinished. It's a shame because the ending contradicts what Aeneas was told in the Underworld; he goes against "your arts are these..." in a very blatant way.
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u/burningtulle 3d ago
Wow! I had the complete opposite experience. I studied classics, but Greek was much more my language than Latin. And reading the Aeneid made me want to improve / re-learn Latin so that I could read it in the original language, I loved it that much haha.
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u/NaibChristopher 3d ago
I’m a Latin teacher and I think lots of these comments say what I would say: about Vergil’s talent and style and how the original Latin is really great.
But let me add: it’s ok if you don’t like it. Feel free to read/watch/etc what you enjoy. I love that you posted here and let ppl give their opinions on why they like it and perhaps you’ll come away with a new appreciation of it. But at the end of the day, it’s ok to bounce off a work, no matter the fame.
My favorite Latin author is Martial, the Latin epigrammatist who wrote tiny poems of two to eight lines mocking, for instance, someone’s dentures. I don’t think anyone would call him Vergil, but he’s still the one I read most often. So feel free to walk away for a bit from Aeneas and read something you like.
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u/geoffnsandiego 3d ago
Aeneas as a character is meant to be boring. One if Virgil’s arguments Rome needs boring, stable, duty-bound, pious leaders. Odysseus, Achilles, and many of the Greeks are the antithesis of this.
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u/qhf23 3d ago
I appreciate how hard this poem is for a modern reader but it is utterly beautiful to read in the original Latin. I say this having read Homer, Aeschylus, Euripides, Ovid, Lucretius and many others in the original language. The elegance with which Virgil brings together the essence of the Homeric epics while at the same time accepting the challenge of writing a modern day epic for the Augustan era - and not dodging the pressure via the Callimachean recusatio - is utterly extraordinary. He inspired, and set the standard for Shakespeare, Milton, Dante and so many others. The Aeneid is the only book to make me cry. It captures so powerfully the horror of the Roman civil war of the first century bc, where brothers were killing brothers. This is is a timeless tale, and a cautionary tale for the current American moment…
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u/Dr_Platypus_1986 3d ago
An extremely important factor to consider would be the many references to the "current events" of Vergil's times sprinkled throughout the Aeneid. There are many little nuggets of information that he packed into the poem which were related to Augustus or his family, such as the part in the underworld where he mentions Marcellus, Augustus' intended heir who had died young. This part of the poem was said to have brought tears to Augustus' eyes when he heard it, and to have caused Octavia (Augustus' sister/Marcellus mother) to faint. There are many such nuggets of info packed all throughout, and I'm so glad that I waited a long time to read the Aeneid so that I could pick up on most of them. Also, the translation will definitely affect the mood as you are reading, heightening or dragging the action down. I really like Fagles' translations of the Iliad and Odyssey (although he is controversial for adding extra words/phrases to the texts to help influence mood). For the Aeneid I chose to read the Robert Fitzgerald translation. I think this version was from the 1950's. I really enjoyed it, and it didn't have as much "blood and brain" as the typical Fagles translations tend to contain. Tldr: Context is important; the more Roman History you know, the more you will enjoy the Aeneid. I recommend Cassius Dio's "Life of Augustus" (published by Penguin 🐧) as a companion piece.
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u/TheRestIsMemory 3d ago
I don't enjoy it as much as Homer but I don't see Virgil's Homeric references as pointless. When you jump 800 years forward in time and across cultures, there are some clashes of ideals and values and Virgil's use of the Homeric characters is a way to explore that.
Aeneas also does some real dipshit stuff; he is kind of a heroic stuffed shirt but he also fucks up impressively in places, including times when he definitely knows better. But also, there is a reason we get fewer Aeneid retellings than Iliad/Odyssey retellings. (Shout-out to Ursula Le Guin for Lavinia though.)
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u/mtullius72 3d ago
Get yourself ready for the ending. And start thinking about it now because it’s not a suspense story— Vergil chooses to end his poem by having Aeneas kill a penitent turnus in a fit of rage. Think about all the times in the poem that the importance of mercy and sparing repentant enemies is stressed. What is Vergil doing and why? I don’t have the answers but grappling with the questions is part of what makes the poem great.
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u/Icy_Escape8973 3d ago
You're reading a translation. The Latin poetry is a great work of art; i'm in a group that has been reading the Aeneid in Latin for four years; we're finally now at the end of it, Book 12. I recommend reading it in Latin!
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u/ReadingLit 3d ago
One shouldn't have to like a work of art. One 'might' try to know the work of art (due to some universal greatness through the ages). Personally, I can't like many literary works and artistic works. I feel 'some' obligation to know them (or, minimally, know of them). I am quite sure that Virgil's works don't move me; same for Homer (and, by chance, I came across a beautiful edition, illustrated with relics from that region and with passages from the text--if THAT edition won't appeal, no edition will). I'll give one example: British World War I poetry. Quite famous, if not very well-known. Okay, I expected to be moved by it. I desired to be moved by it. Nada. Nothing. Knowing how deadly World War I was--due mostly to the mechanized nature of it and the poison gas--I had some background to appreciate any literary first-hand accounts of battle (outright suicide, often). Nothing. I could add an additional example: jazz. I hear it quite often from the landlady's jazz station. THEN, I went on the Internet and typed in various key words ('underrated classics in jazz'; 'overlooked greats in jazz' and other wordings along those lines). I spent hours listening to widely acclaimed jazz pieces. In those hours and hours, I found all of ONE piece I found moving*--a very delicate piece. (I'm familiar with "Kind of Blue" and I do enjoy it; by Miles Davis). How long can you keep an open mind? How much out of the way effort should one make?
* if the reader is interested, the title is: "Almost Blue" by Chet Baker (and if you read the responses to the video, you'll see TONS of people's posts concurring)
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u/BaconAndCheeseSarnie 3d ago
I found the Aeneid an acquired taste. As long as one does not expect it to be a “Latin Homer”, which it is not, I think one can and will get a great deal out of it. Books 2, 4, and 6 are justly famous, and for very good reasons. I still prefer Homer, but Vergil is also full of good things.
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u/Atreios_Anax 3d ago edited 3d ago
The whole point of Æneas is pietas. He is the perfect Roman hero, fulfilling a sacred obligation to the future Roman state.
This contrasts with the Homeric hero, the essence of whose personal heroism and individual κλεος could upend Fate itself.
And I’ll add my voice to the exquisite nature of the Latin verse. It’s finely wrought, and without being overly flashy like Ovid. For me, the line that really hit me squarely like a massive, earthshaking drum-beat were the spondees in:
Monstrum horrendum, informe, ingens, cui lumen ademptum
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u/baconandeggwitty 2d ago
There are some good turns of phrase but it's a slog.
It is funny. If by slog, you mean that the plot is slow moving, then I more or less agree with this remark, yet the Aeneid is probably the work I prize above all others. Some literary creations depend on their turn of phrase more than on their plot. This will appeal to some but not others. It is not surprising if the techniques by which the poet studied to please his audience 2000+ years ago differ from those of e.g. novels of the two previous centuries, Netflix series, etc., in which plot is king. What can one say? If the Aeneid does not agree with you, stay well clear of the Georgics.
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u/Jonathan_Peachum 3d ago
I am probably an uncultured boor but I feel the same as you - it is basically fanfiction of Homer written for a Roman audience who wanted to feel the same sense of grandeur as the audience who listened to Homer.
I suspect that we both feel that way because we don't understand Latin and cannot appreciate the beauty of the original text. But as far as the mere contents go, I share your reaction, and can withstand the downvotes I will certainly face for it.
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u/Spacemarine1031 3d ago
I'm seeing others say the Latin really is where the book comes to life. So I think we're both deficient there. If only I had picked Latin and not Greek in undergrad
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u/Jonathan_Peachum 3d ago
Yep, I see those comments now.
I guess we are both missing out by not reading Latin.
As I am a past-70 old fart, I doubt I am going to rectify that error in my lifetime!
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u/NatsFan8447 3d ago
Same here. As contrasted to the Iliad and The Odyssey, the Aeneid seems forced and artificial. I’ve tried two different translations by respected translators and never could finish it. Virgil wrote it to please Augustus and it shows.
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u/Cooper-Willis suadentque cadentia sidera somnos 3d ago
Unfortunately with the Aeneid, it is MUCH better in Latin than translation, and suffers much more than Homer in that regard; what that says of Vergil’s artistic finesse make of that what you will, but from someone who has read them both in their original languages, Homer never really approaches anything like “apparent rari nantes in gurgite vasto” or “suadentque cadentia sidera somnos”.
Vergil wrote his poem as a very conciously erudite work: what to our modern idea of ‘originality’ seems tacky and “amateurish” is really seen as the highest artistic virtue in antiquity. All Greek literature goes back to Homer, whether it’s Sophocles or Herodotus; every reference to Homer legitimised a work’s place in the canon.
Vergil was very quick to this; all of the homeric references serve as foils for Aeneas and his (I agree) rather boring heroism. Aeneas’ most ‘heroic’ moments by the homeric measure are his fury in book 2 and the violent ending to book 12; on both occasions Vergil gives us a sense that he is failing his ‘pietas’, which is why Venus berates him and redirects him to his family in the burning ruins of Troy. For Vergil, Aeneas doesn’t have time to sit around in his tent while his men are dying, and when he does get distracted the gods immediately berate him; he has an empire to found, and the poet is stuck between a rock and a hard place to retroactively bridge from the passionate throes of Iliadic heroism to austere Augustan dignitas.