This is a post i've been wanting to make for a while because somehow conservatives have been able to spin this whole story and everyone has basically accepted it. So like my other posts i wanna break it down into a few points.
And before anyone immediately runs into the comments to post the same quote for the 900th time, yes, i know Trump said ''im not talking about the neo-nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally''. I know. Everybody knows. That is not the argument.
If your entire stance on this thing is literally just ''Trump did not literally say neo-nazis are very fine people'', then you would be correc, but what i dont understand is this insane leap people make from that to ''therefore the entire media lied and Trump never said anything wrong or bad''.
Number 1: This was not a normal statue protest where some random neo-Nazis unfortunately showed up.
This is probably the most important part of this entire discussion, because people talk about Charlottesville like there was some normal conservative statue protest with thousands of random Republicans, history nerds or like civil war enthusiasts or whatever, and then 50 nazis showed up in the corner and made everybody look bad. Thats just not what this event was.
The rally was called ''Unite the right'', and it was organized by Jason Kessler, who is a white nationalist neo-nazi type person, it was promoted by people like Richard Spencer, again, giga-neo-nazi, and people like David Duke, literal grand wizard of the KKK, were all involved. There were neo-nazi groups, KKK people, nazi flags, nazi salutes, white nationalist organizations, people chanting racist shit, etc. The night before the main rally, hundreds of people marched through UVA carrying torches and chanting shit like ''jews will not replace us'' and ''blood and soil''. Like there is no getting away from the fact that this was an insanely blatant, unbashedly white nationalist giga racist rally.
So when somebody says ''Trump was obviously talking about all the normal peaceful statue protesters'', okay, who? Where are they? Because the rally that we're talking about was very obviously a white nationalist, neo-nazi, like just insanely racist rally. Im obviously fine with saying there were people at that rally who weren't nazis, who wanted the statues to stay up and were not white nationalists. Obviously those people existed. But like, who in their right mind, is like a pro-confederate statue person, not a neo-nazi or anything, and decides ''yaknow what, that super racist rally with all the most insane people in the nation, im gonna go participate on the same side as them in the rally'', like, no, those people do not exist in any meaningful number and theres no reason at all to refer to these people instead of just saying ''yeah the nazi rally was really bad''
The question is whether there was some substantial group of these people participating at the rally who can reasonably be described as ''very fine people'', despite the entire event being organized, promoted and dominated by white nationalists. Like, what an unbelievably bizarre statement to make about an event like this.
Number 2: Trump literally points to the tiki torch rally when describing these supposedly peaceful people.
This is probably the weirdest part of the defense to me because Trump doesnt even leave this completely abstract or whatever. He specifically starts talking about ''the night before'' and says there were people there protesting ''very quietly'' against the removal of the Robert E Lee statue.
The night before was the fucking tiki torch rally, btw.
Like i mentioned before, this is the rally where hundreds of white nationalists marched with torches chanting ''Jews will not replace us''.
So again, who is he talking about?
If the response is ''well obviously he meant the non-nazis'', okay, WHICH ONES? Point them out. Because now the entire defense relies on this group of normal peaceful statue protesters who apparently attended a torch march organized and populated by white nationalists, surrounded themselves with people chanting about jews replacing them, and somehow remained this totally distinct group of wholesome history enjoyers that Trump had in mind.
Could some random individual like that technically have existed? Sure. Literally anything is possible. But Trump didnt say ''maybe there was one confused guy there who just really liked Robert E Lee'' He talked about ''many people''.
Again, who are these people, and why would you ever make this statement about an event like that?
Number 3: Saying ''except the neo-nazis'' does not magically make ''very fine people on both sides'' an intelligent statement.
This is where the ''fine people hoax'' thing becomes incredibly dishonest, because people treat the qualifier like its some magic Dr Strange spell that retroactively makes everything else Trump said perfectly coherent.
What Trump actually said was this:
''You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. And im not talking about the neo-nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally''.
So we have now established that Trump did not literally put neo-nazis inside the category of ''very fine people''.
Okay
Now, were back to the question from before.
Who are the very fine people who decided to join a rally that, on all fronts, was a white nationalist rally?
Because if i walk into a rally organized by neo-nazis, promoted by neo-nazis, filled with nazi flags, surrounded by people chanting nazi slogans, and then none of this sways me to get the fuck out of there because ''well personally i just really care about the statue'', then the fact that im even willingly there says a lot.
If i go to some left-wing politician or influencers rally because i support universal healthcare or whatever other thing, and the rally was organized by people who are pro-terrorism, the rally is filled with Hamas flags and pro-terrorism chanting, and then i look around and everybody is screaming about how much they love terrorist attacks, i dont get to stay there for hours and then complain that somebody associated me with the terrorist-supporting rally, even if you were completely unaware of how this event was promoted, after 5 minutes of seeing the most pro-terrorism signs and chating, you'd get the fuck out of there..
This should be the easiest moral intuition imaginable.
At some point you cant act oblivious to everything, when people are saying the most racist shit around you, and you are a part of their overall movement or rally or whatever, people will associate you with these neo-nazis, and that isn't unreasonable.
And this is also why the standard ''BUT HE SAID THE NEO-NAZIS SHOULD BE CONDEMNED TOTALLY'' response doesnt really solve anything. Its like if i said ''Well theres good people inside the KKK'', like statistically im probably okay since there might be 1-2 people in there who are doing some infiltration shit like in the black kkklansman movie, but again, what a stupid thing to say?
If somebody tells me ''Trump literally said the neo-nazis were very fine people'', that is factually incorrect, but it doesn't do anything for anyone.
And people use that correction to sneak in a completely different conclusion, which is ''therefore Trump was completely correct and reasonable about Charlottesville'', and that is obviously not true at all.
Imagine i say:
''There were very fine people on both sides of the KKK rally''
Then somebody goes ''what the fuck are you talking about?''
And i respond:
''Whoa, hold on. I specifically said i wasnt talking about the actual KKK members. Obviously i condemn them. Im talking about all the lovely non-KKK people marching on the KKK side''
Okay, great.
Now... who are these normal non-KKK people voluntarily participating on the KKK side? How many are there? Why are they there? Why havent they left? Why are you characterizing that side as containing all these ''very fine people'' when the organized event itself is explicitly a KKK event?
Simply adding ''except the KKK'' does not answer any of those questions.
Thats basically what the Charlottesville argument comes down to. Trump can remove the neo-nazis from his category of who the ''very fine people'' are, but if the side hes describing was 99% populated by the giga white nationalists hes excluding, then his qualifier doesnt magically fix the underlying claim.
At that point, who is he talking about? Like 8 people on the side of the white nationalist rally? Why even make that statement to begin with, why die on this hill and take the political hit to make sure that people know that there were actually 8 people with the neo-nazis who were actually cool dudes?
Number 4: The wider context makes the whole ''media hoax'' framing even more ridiculous.
Another thing that annoys me about this argument is people acting like Trump gave one perfectly normal statement, the media spun it or whatever and then thats the whole thing. Conservatives looove single sentences.
But that isnt what happened at all.
His first major response to the whole thing was:
''We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides''
This is immediately after a rally organized by white nationalists where people were marching around with nazi imagery and screaming racist shit.
And his instinct is ''many sides''. (and im pretty sure he wasn't even meant to say this, he interjected with this stupid shit when making this statement out of his own free will)
There were obviously violent counterprotestors.
But this distinction is incredibly simple. Saying ''individuals on both sides committed violence'' is not the same claim as saying ''both sides were morally equivalent''. One side was assembled for a political event organized by white nationalists. The other side assembled to oppose that event. You can condemn violence by the counterprotesters while still recognizing that those two political projects are not morally interchangeable.
Then Trump gets enormous backlash, Republicans and Democrats are both pressuring him to specifically denounce the white supremacist groups, two days later he reads the statement explicitly condemning the KKK, neo-nazis and white supremacists, and then the next day he goes straight back into this argument about ''both sides'' and ''very fine people'', like, hedge, hedge, hedge, hedge, anything possible to not actual give a clear cut condemnation.
So no, the controversy is not just one sentence taken out of context. The context is literally part of why the sentence looks so bad.
The actual situation is that Trump was talking about a rally organized and overwhelmingly populated by white nationalists and generally the most heinous and racist people in the nation. He repeatedly framed the situation as having legitimate people on both sides. He claimed there were substantial numbers of ordinary peaceful statue protesters within the neo-nazi side. And when he tried to give an example of these supposedly peaceful protesters, he referenced the fucking torch rally from the previous night where people were marching around chanting ''jews will not replace us''.
So at the absolute bare minimum, saying ''there were very fine people on both sides'' was an unfathomably stupid fucking statement.
The qualifier establishes one thing. Trump was not explicitly saying ''neo-nazis are very fine people.''
It does not establish that the broader description he gave of Charlottesville was accurate. It does not establish that there was some substantial innocent faction at the rally deserving the label ''very fine people''. And it definitely does not establish that the entire controversy was invented by the media.
It feels like people found one legitimate correction to an overly simplified anti-Trump talking point and then stretched that correction about 900 miles further than it actually goes.
So yeah, CMV.
If somebody wants to change my view, the thing im probably most interested in seeing is evidence for this supposedly significant group of peaceful, non-white-nationalist ''very fine people'' who were actually participating on the rally side, because that seems to be the factual claim the entire defense ultimately rests on.