r/askaconservative • u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest • 24d ago
Is the way conservatives handle liberal deaths legit or performative?
I've noticed this trend on conservative platforms that when someone liberal dies (like in the case of Jason Arday, assuming he's liberal) or gets vey ill (like Biden), that there's a lot of comments like 'thoughts and prayers,' or 'I am very sorry to hear this news.' There's also a lot of backslapping like 'look at how great we are for responding with such civility, those liberal animals only spew vitriol when one of us is sick or dies.'
Why I have some disbelief is that there's a lot of contempt about many of these people. For example, people were calling Fauci the literal devil and saying he got millions of people killed and that he'll burn in hell, but then when he got west Nile people were saying I wish him a speedy recovery, thoughts and prayer, etc., but are now back to calling him worse than Stalin.
Or more recently saying how Biden ruined our country and should spend the rest of his life in jail, but now that he has cancer and it's spreading many are saying they wish him better health and are sad for him.
So my questions are:
Have you noticed that conservatives tend to respond this way, and do you believe they really mean it, or is it performative?
Do you believe that liberals respond differently (like the death of Lindsey Graham) and if so do you believe liberals are less moral than conservatives, with this difference being an example?
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19d ago
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u/EverySingleMinute Fiscal Conservatism 21d ago
It is pretty simple. Conservatives have class and don't feel the need to spit on someone's grave. Liberals are the complete opposite. They are mean and evil spirited and use any bad situation to try to further their opinions.
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17d ago
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u/z7r1k3 Conservatism 21d ago
Man, is it so unbelievable that we can despise someone politically, but not want them to freaking die?
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u/Okratas Conservatism 21d ago
Hey chat, is it strange to wish everyone well and a long healthy life?
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
It is when you view your political opponents as traitors, immoral, and actively evil, like many on the right view the left.
If you literally believe leftists are traitors committing evil acts that attack the core foundations of America, treating them like standard opponents doesn't add up. You don't handle actual traitors with routine election losses.
If someone, for example, truly believes elective abortion or leftist policies are evil (a label often used by conservatives to mean the destruction of innocent human life), wishing a politician good health so they can stay in office and continue passing those laws is kind of a bizarre moral calculation. It means prioritizing performative personal etiquette (I won't wish bad health on anyone) over stopping what they have defined as active, ongoing evil.
Using terms like traitor and evil while treating the situation like a normal policy disagreement proves those words are being used as dramatic hyperbole. And while you personally keep it civil, other major figures in the movement use that exact 'traitor' label to justify calling for tribunals and political executions.
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19d ago
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u/Dtwn92 Constitutional Conservatism 22d ago
Being a human isn't hard. Knowing your disagreement with them politically or ideolgoically doesn't make them less of a human and most times less of an American. I disagree with them, I don't hate them. I will not bow to their level to make them suffer.
Cancer sucks, I don't want anyone to suffer that. As for Biden, his last few years in politics were espically bad, he literally went against everything he stood for as a life long Democrat. That's unforgivable and shows you want power will do. That doesn't mean I want him to suffer or his family to suffer.
Yes, liberals as always respond with feelings and emotions. The modern left, that I as a person left a few years back, is not the party or platform of empathy the profess. They are nasty, ugly and show us daily who they are.
I think this is fitting:
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.
- Friedrich W. Nietzsche
For years, they've called the right and Republicans fascists and Nazis, and now their own behavior is becoming increasingly similar to the accusations they made.
TL; DR
Yes, people are sincere when they wish a politician well during disease and struggle.
Yes, in this instance, the liberal response to this has been far less moral.
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u/Holofernes_Head Libertarian Conservatism 22d ago
Others have done a good job answering already, and I concur - I want people to suffer consequences for their awful policies and practices, not to suffer personal pain, disease, or a horrible death.
I want the DSA, the unabashed communists, and the gross morally relativistic liberals to be shamed, bullied, shunned, and ostracized from society. I want their reps to lose every election from now until kingdom come. I DO NOT want them to die of cancer or get shot in the neck in public.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
I appreciate your perspective. Would it be fair to say that you view some or all of the left as:
- Traitors to the country?
- Actively destroying America?
- Amoral or behaving amorally?
- Not sure your religious stance but could you potentially see them as evil or satanic?
I ask because I think a lot of people would say that if you felt that way about a person, it would stand to reason that you'd be pleased if they stopped existing (ie. died).
I would also say a lot of people on the right DO feel those ways about people in the left. I'm trying to reconsile how the right can feel so extremely about a person or group on the left and still be bummed when they die.
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u/z7r1k3 Conservatism 20d ago
Hopefully this gets the point across: Just because I think abortion is a horrific evil doesn't mean I think the women who have fallen for that horrific evil lie are, themselves, horrifically evil.
In other words, love the sinner, hate the sin.
I ask because I think a lot of people would say that if you felt that way about a person, it would stand to reason that you'd be pleased if they stopped existing (ie. died).
It would not stand to reason. That is a barbaric mentality that the free world rightfully rejects.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
Your "Love the sinner" comment implies viewing opponents with compassion as misled people, but that is completely at odds with how right-wing media and politicians actually talk about leftists and moreso leftist leaders. Liberal figures are rarely described as "misguided souls who fell for a lie, " they are explicitly called tyrants, demons, traitors, and 'existential threats to the nation.'
"Love the sinner" works as a principle for personal relationships, but applying it to institutional power creates a major ethical conflict. If a national leader is actively orchestrating what you believe is a massive, ongoing 'horrific evil,' wishing them good health so they can remain in power and continue passing those laws prioritizes personal civility toward the leader over protecting the people harmed by those policies. That is why I see your position as a major disconnect.
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u/z7r1k3 Conservatism 18d ago edited 18d ago
I wasn't talking about the leaders. I was talking about those who fell for the lies propogated by the leaders, and specifically in the case of women who were victims of the lie of abortion.
If anything, the "disconnect" you're seeing is us wrestling with our own primal instincts, and death being so far extreme that we clearly reject it, even if we struggle to love people as much as Christ does.
We don't claim to be perfect. But for crying out loud, this nation was founded on people not dying for their conflicting beliefs.
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u/Holofernes_Head Libertarian Conservatism 21d ago
Nothing applies across the board, but:
Yes, active support of communism is traitorous.
Yes, active support of democratic socialist or communist policies directly attacks the functional foundations of America. Some of these morons want to abolish the Supreme Court, which is uniquely idiotic.
Immoral not amoral.. I would love it if law were amoral and entirely neutral. Yes, I would venture to say that most leftist policy is immoral.
I find elective abortion to be undoubtedly evil, and some of the more extreme calls for redistribution and violent seizure of others' property to be legitimately evil. I wouldn't claim to know how much influence Satan has on anyone else.
But still, wishing death on others you disagree with is itself intrinsically evil, so I won't be doing that. I just want them to lose and wouldn't mind if they were humiliated in the process.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
Just to be clear, you answered to almost every single point, explicitly confirming that you view your political opponents as traitors, immoral, and actively evil.
Your position in the way you view leftists and the line you draw about not wishing harm or death on them highlights a huge gap in political rhetoric.
If you literally believe leftists are 'traitors' committing 'undoubtedly evil' acts that attack the core foundations of America, treating them like standard opponents who should just 'lose an election and be humiliated' doesn't add up. You don't handle actual traitors with routine election losses.
If someone truly believes elective abortion or leftist policies are 'undoubtedly evil' (a label often used by conservatives to mean the destruction of innocent human life), wishing a politician good health so they can stay in office and continue passing those laws is kind of a bizarre moral calculation. It means prioritizing performative personal etiquette (I won't wish bad health on anyone) over stopping what they have defined as active, ongoing evil.
Using terms like 'traitor' and 'evil' while treating the situation like a normal policy disagreement proves those words are being used as dramatic hyperbole. And while you personally keep it civil, other major figures in the movement use that exact 'traitor' label to justify calling for tribunals and political executions.
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u/Holofernes_Head Libertarian Conservatism 19d ago
You’re conflating justice with malicious hatred. Yes, I would love to see traitors lose their positions, be shunned by society, be bullied out of politics forever, and be properly prosecuted for treason. I would love to see providing an elective abortion classified as first degree murder and prosecuted appropriately.
Going through the justice system and being punished (even if ultimately executed) is not comparable to something like “lol get cancer and die slow!” The justice system is not about inflicting suffering.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
In your last comment, you claimed you just wanted leftists to "lose an election and be humiliated." Now you're acknowledging you want political opponents prosecuted for treason and abortion providers executed for first-degree murder. You've proved my point that the "we just want normal political debates" framing was hyperbole masking a desire for capital prosecution.
You argue that state execution is clean 'justice,' but feeling relief if a political figure dies of natural causes is "malicious hatred." Think about the logic there: if you genuinely believe a politician is orchestrating active treason or mass murder, actively praying for their swift medical recovery means praying for them to remain healthy enough to keep committing those acts. You are prioritizing procedural legal process over stopping what you've labeled as ongoing, active evil.
BTW, calling democratic socialism or voting for policy changes treason punishable by death is the literal definition of authoritarian political persecution, and is most certainly not standard constitutional justice. Redefining routine policy differences as capital treason makes it clear that the "justice" being called for is purely partisan.
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u/Holofernes_Head Libertarian Conservatism 19d ago
This is rather eye opening, the difference in how we process things. Explains a lot about how a lot of the left acts. Justice, murder, and disease are not even remotely the same categories. Much like how communists (or their diet brothers, the DSA) are not remotely the same as people to have “routine policy differences” with.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
Could you expand on that thought? I'm not understanding what is eye opening about my post. As far as I can tell I'm pointing out inconsistencies in what you're saying, it sounds like you disagree with what I wrote? If so howso?
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u/Holofernes_Head Libertarian Conservatism 19d ago
The whole thread has been you not seeming to understand why others don’t wish death and misery on politicians who support evil policies. This tracks with the typical opinions expressed on Reddit wishing death and misery on political opponents who do such evil and abhorrent things as… talking to college kids. There seems to be no awareness of the fact that a functional justice system is based on doing what ought to be done, exacting punishment commensurate with the crime, attempting to make whole what was broken, etc.
I want society to treat lunatic politicians and their supporters like lunatics. I want their ideologies to be thrown into the “trash heap of history’s discarded lies.” I want the law to treat treason as treason. None of these things involves cold-blooded murder or delighting in their painful and untimely demise.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
I'm not asking you to delight in suffering or to wish cancer on anyone. I certainly don't. You've created a bizarre moral inversion where the state killing a political opponent via execution is 'orderly justice,' but someone feeling relief if that same opponent dies of natural causes is 'malicious.' Hiding behind courtrooms and legal procedure doesn't change the outcome: you are still advocating for the state to end human lives over political ideology. Grouping democratic socialists and political rivals outside of 'routine policy differences' to label them traitors isn't how the Constitution works. Under Article III, Section 3, holding socialist views or voting for left-wing policies is protected speech—not capital treason. Redefining your political opponents as traitors so the state can legally eliminate them isn't 'functional justice'; it is the textbook definition of authoritarianism. That is what you're advocating for while claiming a moral highground.
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u/Gaxxz Constitutional Conservatism 22d ago
So your theory is that conservatives really have disrespect for well known liberals, but they feign respect on social media when they hear bad news? For what purpose?
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
It's hard not to overgeneralize here but I'll try. I wouldn't describe it as feigning respect. It's more like there are many on the right who seem to draw a moral line in the sand, that despite how much they hate or think a person is evil or bad for the country, that most will never go so far as to say something like 'good riddance', or 'I hope he doesn't wake up', even if they absolutely abhor the person. An example of this would be when Biden's cancer was made public or when we found out it hand metastatized. Lots of 'thoughts and prayers', 'I wish him a speedy recovery', 'I wouldn't wish that on anyone', etc. It was a stark contrast to Lindsey Graham's death, when a lot of liberals did voice their disdain.
But the thing that throws me for a loop is that so many of the right hate these people, with many thinking they're straight up evil, like in the case of Biden. So it's that going from 'this guy is a demon' to 'thoughts and prayers' .
Also, when I see this scenario play out with a sick or dead liberal, in addition to the 'thoughts and prayers' comments I also see a lot of 'look at how civil we are being, those leftist animals would never be so courteous.'
So I'm asking people here if they acknowledge this behavior is a thing amongst the right, and if so, do you see it as a genuine display of heightened morality, or is it more so a performative display? Perhaps as a means of showing that they are better than the left, who tend to be pretty openly crass about people they despise.
I hope I'm coming off as good faith here because that is my intention.
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u/Gaxxz Constitutional Conservatism 22d ago
I haven't seen it. Speaking for myself, I don't hate anybody. Biden was a horrible president, but that doesn't mean I hope he dies of cancer.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
Just to be clear, you haven't seen anyone on the right hate anyone on the left, including Biden, so much that they'd be pleased if harm came to that person?
You haven't seen anyone on the right think someone on the left was so so damaging to the fabric of the country that they want that person's life to end?
That's like, so many people right now that I'm genuinely shocked if that's what you're saying.
Have you met anyone on the left that felt that way about the right?
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u/Uncaring_Dispatcher Religious Conservatism 23d ago
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. People tend to be assholes and it has nothing to do with politics, other than the fact that these shitty people seek a political party that they think aligns with their ideology.
If you'll look at it as a fly on the wall, you'll notice how politics isn't the problem. Religious Conservatives are hypocrites all the time. The fact that they're registered as Republicans has nothing to do with the fact that Christians can and are often, bigots and racists and even anti-Semites, which goes against everything the Holy Bible says. But there are plenty of registered Democrats who are Christians that are indistinguishable from the Republican version; especially ones who claim that they support Israel while lambasting AIPAC as a scapegoat to conceal actual anti-Semitism.
If you really want to be honest about things, do some research on all the popular left-leaning subreddits and compare notes. I've seen countless posts that have idolized people like Mangione and Tyler Robinson and Thomas Matthew Crooks on left-wing forums all over. I've seen people, in their blind hatred, cheer on all three assassination attempts at the president, hoping the next would take him out. If you want to be really concerned, check out r/liberalgunowners. The norm with the Democrat party as been to restrict gun ownership, with the idea that it would stop people from being shot. Now there's a sub sect of Democrats who are arming themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I think an armed society is a polite society and all. But there are plenty of posts with them LARPing and fantasizing about killing Republicans and ICE and usurping the Federal Government because of a perceived threat that they're all going to be thrown into a Gulag for being gay or trans or something.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
So just to clarify, is your position that both the left and the right are equally hypocritical when it comes to giving 'thoughts and prayers' to their political enemies?
Because I have to say, I do think that the left is more consistent in heaping on hate to their perceived enemies. I agree that the right does this too, but when they die or get sick, I overwhelmingly see them switch from hate to 'thoughts and prayers' type comments. Do you agree that they do that or do you disagree with that premise?
Because if you agree with the premise, that they switch their rhetoric, I'm not clear on if you think they are doing it to be performative or is it for some other reason.
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u/Uncaring_Dispatcher Religious Conservatism 23d ago edited 23d ago
I must apologize to you. I've revisited your original post and my reply and I'll have to admit that I took it completely wrong the first time. I'm embarrassed to admit that I assumed things that wasn't there.
To get back to it, yes, I agree that "educated Progressives", in large part, are hypocritical in that regard but, of course, there are far fewer that say anything good about their perceived enemies when they get sick or die, to begin with.
So my questions are:
Have you noticed that conservatives tend to respond this way, and do you believe they really mean it, or is it performative?
Do you believe that liberals respond differently (like the death of Lindsey Graham) and if so do you believe liberals are less moral than conservatives, with this difference being an example?
I would say that most Conservatives are not doing it to be performative but there are those who, like you said, clap each other on their collective backs.
I would say that the Democrat Party has attracted far more people who have seething hatred in their hearts and that's really nothing new. What is new is the rapid escalation in violence, threats and hateful rhetoric. They've always hated on Republicans as far back as I can remember and I'm an old guy. So, unless I completely miss my mark, I will say that the Progressive crowd is performative in the very rare case that they say something nice in the first place.
And I do apologize. I need to pay more attention.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
I would say that the Democrat Party has attracted far more people who have seething hatred in their hearts and that's really nothing new. What is new is the rapid escalation in violence, threats and hateful rhetoric. They've always hated on Republicans as far back as I can remember and I'm an old guy.
For what its worth, I think basically all people on the left feel the exact same way about the right: That the right hates them on a molecular level, and that the right has engaged in political violence for years. It's interesting that both sides seem to feel the same way. Almost like we're being pitted against each other.
I will say that the Progressive crowd is performative in the very rare case that they say something nice in the first place.
I would argue that because they rarely say something nice, that it makes what they do say more likely to be sincere lol.
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u/jayzfanacc Libertarian Conservatism 23d ago
I don’t think these folks are bad people, I just think they’re misguided and naive. They want the same things that I do, they just think there’s a better path to the destination. I can’t fault them for that, as bad as I may find their politics.
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u/PriceofObedience Libertarian Conservatism 23d ago
I can't speak for others.
I hate it when people suffer for reasons which aren't their fault. That's all.
Biden getting cancer isn't karma or anything like that. It's just senseless pain and suffering.
Do you believe that liberals respond differently (like the death of Lindsey Graham) and if so do you believe liberals are less moral than conservatives, with this difference being an example?
All I can say is that I would never cheer for the death of another person. Liberals often do.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
Biden getting cancer isn't karma or anything like that. It's just senseless pain and suffering.
I think there are a decent amount of people on the right who do believe his cancer is divine justice.
All I can say is that I would never cheer for the death of another person. Liberals often do.
I agree people on the left do this much more then the right. I would say, though, that if you see someone as extremely damaging to society and think they're evil, it makes sense that you'd hope they go away by any means necessary.
That's why it's hard to believe that people on the right can say things on one hand like 'Fauci/Bidem/Hillary are responsible for the deaths of millions, they are actively destroying our society. They are criminals that should at a minimum be imprisoned and possibly even executed. They are definitely going to hell' etc.
Then on the other hand they say 'I wish this person a swift recovery. Thoughts and prayers. I don't wish that on anyone', etc.
Like my dude, you were just saying Biden deserves eternal hellfire, but now you hope he's pain free and recovers. Do you see why that seems disingenuous?
From my perspective the left is being more logically consistent and genuine in terms of how they are applying their moral judgments.
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u/PriceofObedience Libertarian Conservatism 22d ago
Do you see why that seems disingenuous?
Not at all.
The point of justice is to remedy the damage a criminal has committed against society. The anger directed at Fauci, Biden etc. is because there has been a distinct lack of justice.
Cancer, accidents etc. are not justice. These things don't punish people for things they've done wrong, they just hurt them indiscriminately and without any proportionality.
Where the Left gets this confused is that they believe bad things happening to corrupt politicians is karmic justice ('what goes around comes around' etc), but that isn't true whatsoever.
This world is spiritually inverted. Selfish psychopaths often become rich and live lavish lives. The greatest acts of selflessness require that someone carry a burden, e.g volunteering at soup kitchens or helping pick up garbage on the side of a road.
It is depraved to feel joy from the suffering and deaths of other people, even if you hate them.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
Cancer, accidents etc. are not justice. These things don't punish people for things they've done wrong, they just hurt them indiscriminately and without any proportionality.
Nobody is arguing that cancer is formal legal due process. My point is about moral consistency. You don't have to cheer for someone's illness to recognize that actively praying for the full health and speedy recovery of someone you label an "existential tyrant destroying millions of lives" makes zero sense.
It is depraved to feel joy from the suffering and deaths of other people, even if you hate them.
This isn't about feeling joy in the suffering someone you hate. If you genuinely believe a politician is an active, ongoing monster who is destroying society, etc., wishing them good health so they can continue doing that work directly contradicts your claim that they are an evil threat. If a person is truly a threat to millions, wishing them well is either performative theater or you don't actually believe your own rhetoric about how dangerous they are.
So I would not call it depraved when the left feels relief when an existential threat disappears (or in this context dies), I would call it logically consistent. Conversely, if the right feel like it's bad when someone on the left dies, and feels the need to point that point, it's either performative or they don't actually believe their own rhetoric about leftists being terrible. But we KNOW that the right thinks the left is terrible, so that only leaves performative theater.
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u/PriceofObedience Libertarian Conservatism 21d ago
You don't have to cheer for someone's illness to recognize that actively praying for the full health and speedy recovery of someone you label an "existential tyrant destroying millions of lives" makes zero sense.
In Christian thought, the spirit is responsible for consciousness, and death isn't the end of the spirit.
The Christian Bible obligates us to forgive those who ask for our forgiveness, but that necessarily requires someone to repent. They must show genuine sorrow and regret for the things they have done.
The dead can't do that unfortunately. So long as a person is alive they have the opportunity to make amends for the things they've done.
Wishing someone well isn't just about wanting them to get back to full health. It's the hope that they make right with God and fix their lives in the process.
Many of us like to pretend we're in a position to condemn other people for their faults, but in actuality that isn't true. In fact, the Bible explicitly tells us not to do that, because we're no better than anybody else in the grand scheme of Creation. And our willingness to do that is, ironically, proof that this is the case.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
Many of us like to pretend we're in a position to condemn other people for their faults, but in actuality that isn't true. In fact, the Bible explicitly tells us not to do that, because we're no better than anybody else in the grand scheme of Creation. And our willingness to do that is, ironically, proof that this is the case.
You say the Bible explicitly commands us not to condemn others because "we're no better than anybody else." But that completely contradicts the daily political rhetoric on the right. Calling political rivals "corrupt tyrants," "monsters," "criminals," and declaring they "deserve the death penalty or hellfire" is explicit, severe condemnation. So i guess I'm not seeing why you're invoking Christianity when your post seems to point out the hypocrisy of the right.
Wishing someone well isn't just about wanting them to get back to full health. It's the hope that they make right with God and fix their lives in the process.
If you genuinely believe a politician is an active tyrant causing ongoing destruction and harm to millions, praying for their physical recovery before they have repented means praying for them to remain healthy enough to continue that harm. Prioritizing an active offender’s theoretical future redemption over the immediate safety of their alleged victims is a severe moral conflict, isn't it?
If "hoping they stay alive to make right with God" were the true motivation behind conservative rhetoric, we would hear commentators and politicians explicitly framing it that way: "We pray for their health so they have time to repent." Instead, we see a complete split: either standard public-relations civility, or complete silence and mockery (such as when Dr. Fauci was hospitalized in 2024 with West Nile virus and received zero calls for spiritual well-wishing from major conservative commentators). It seems far more likely the things they say are performative.
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u/Sam_Fear Conservatism 23d ago
Likely Goomba Fallacy.
From my perspective the left is being more logically consistent and genuine in terms of how they are applying their moral judgments.
Cheering murder but arguing against the death penalty is not consistent either.
IT appears to me you are trying to justify your own dissonance.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
Likely Goomba Fallacy.
That's interesting. That could certainly be a component. It's hard to keep track of who says what in a forum like reddit. I would however argue that the Goomba fallacy by its nature is hard to disprove when we're talking about a place like reddit.
Cheering murder but arguing against the death penalty is not consistent either.
It actually is consistent. Cheering for the death of someone who you think is bad for society is purely a moral judgement, whereas not wanting the death penalty is about policy, governmental overreach, having little trust in the justice system to apply justice fairly, etc. You can be happy that a person died because you believe they are harming society and still not want the government to execute people. I do think you're deflecting here/giving me some whataboutism with that point.
IT appears to me you are trying to justify your own dissonance.
I'm not. I'm genuinely trying to understand how the two sentiments 'he will burn' one day and 'thoughts and prayers' the next can hold the same space.
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u/gntxs Conservatism 23d ago
As a conservative, I can think someone is an awful person/politician/whatever and not wish death upon them.
Liberals should try it.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
I suppose if I believed that a certain person was an evil person, that did a lot of harm to the world both in terms of actually being responsible for countless deaths as well as the degregation of society, I don't think it's unreasonable to wish that they died, is it?
I've seen many conservatives calling for the imprisonment and even execution of certain people (Fauci, Hillary, and Biden to name a few). People believe they've done so much harm that they are definitely going to hell.
How can you feel that way about a person while also wishing them good health and a speedy recovery?
Can you understand why some may see it impossible to hold such extreme conflicting views, and that it is likely performative?
I agree that when people die or get sick, the left does indeed have more negative stuff to say about them if they are hated and seen as evil. To me, though, it seems more logically consistent that if you think someone is a cancer on society that you wouldn't wish them well.
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u/gntxs Conservatism 23d ago
I know a lot of conservatives. Not one of them has called for the execution of any of the people you've listed.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
I don't believe you don't know anyone. Aside from the many, many people on the conservative subreddit, as well as other subs, here's some:
Charlie Kirk - said Biden should be executed Marjorie Taylor Greene - Said Hillary should be executed, pretty sure she named others Steve Bannon - Said Fauci should be executed, along with others Anthony Bouchard (He's a state senator) Said Fauci should be executed. Made a big deal of it Michele Morrow (She's not as famous as she lost her election) but she said it of all three
Feel free to look these up the information is widely available.
There are many other people on the right who have said similar stuff, but I'm trying to name people I'm fairly confident you know. And again I just picked these 3 off the top of my head that I know people have wanted to be executed, but there are many others that that people on the right think should face execution.
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u/Devilman- Libertarian Conservatism 23d ago
You are going to have to provide video of Charlie Kirk calling for any violence.. But the others you listed are sort of the Psycho branch of the conservative movement.. Kind of like the DSA is the psycho branch of the liberal movement.. We are as good at controlling the Psychos in our own home as the left is.. meaning we can't.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
Video of Video of Charlie Kirk saying Biden should be executed
the others you listed are sort of the Psycho branch of the conservative movement.. Kind of like the DSA is the psycho branch of the liberal movement.. We are as good at controlling the Psychos in our own home as the left is.. meaning we can't.
You can't really compare the DSA to the people I listed above. First of all the conservatives I listed are for the most part accepted by the larger movement. As you have seen in the recent primaries, there is a massive schism between democrats and the DSA. The attacks between the two have been brutal and is almost like a civil war. They have actively spent tens of millions fighting each other this past primary.
Moreover, and probably most importantly, as far as I know, no elected officials/leaders of the DSA have called for political executions. In fact I'm pretty sure it's part of their mission to condemn all political violence.
While I do agree the examples I gave you of people on the right are psychos, the examples I gave are large voices on the right, and could hardly be called fringe. I mean Charlie Kirk is the saint of the right, probably moreso than Regan at this point. Bannon was chief of staff and is still an important political strategist, with a very popular podcast. MTG is a sitting US representative with multiple committee appointments and a large social media following. Bouchard isn't super well known but he's a sitting state senator. As I said before I just picked some easy ones to give examples of but there are many more. And mind you I was only talking about comments calling for execution against those 3 people. If we are expanding that beyond those 3, and including all calls for violence outside of execution, there would be much, much more.
Anyway I think I've provided enough examples. My point being that from my perspective, the performative dynamic I talked about in my earlier post is pervasive in the larger conservative movement. It regularly weapones moral outrage when liberals react in a cold/harsh way to conservative deaths, while simultaneously celebrating, funding, and giving platforms to key figures on the right who have openly called for political executions.
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u/Devilman- Libertarian Conservatism 22d ago
Hadnt seen that clip before. I find it as embarrassing as all the gotcha videos he made.
But all the people you list as influential are kind of embarrassing at least to me. I cant say Charlie was a psycho. But none of them have much influence in my circles. I guess a way for us both to look at these people would be. Just because the press covers the DSA psychos and the right wing psychos. Doesn’t indicate their influence on the movements.Back to your initial question. I for one do not celebrate anyones death or pain. Regardless of their politics.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
Back to your initial question. I for one do not celebrate anyones death or pain. Regardless of their politics.
Devils advocate here: If you genuinely believe a politician is an active, ongoing threat, and is a morally corrupt monster who is destroying society, etc. (which is very much a widely held belief of conservatives about many people on the left), why would you not celebrate their death? Why would you wish them good health, or thoughts and prayers if they became very sick?
Them recovering only makes them more of a threat, because then they will go back to doing all that evil stuff that destroys society.
If you truely believe that many on the left are that dangerously bad (like how so many on the right see Biden, Fauci, Hillary, DSA members, Hasan Piker, etc.), why would you wish them well when they get sick? Why wouldn't you celebrate them dying? You would.
UNLESS: A. You don't truely see them as an evil threat and don't actually believe in your own rhetoric about how dangerous they are. Or B. Not doing so is performative theater.
Feeling relief when an existential threat disappears is logically consistent. Conversely, pretending you don't feel relief in that situation is performative and intellectually dishonest.
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u/Devilman- Libertarian Conservatism 22d ago edited 22d ago
I can think someone is dangerous and not evil.. I tend to rely on Hanlons razor.. IE. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance.
I disagree completely with and think that even their thinking is extremely dangerous to the country and me personally.. but they aren't evil. they are, for the most part, dealing with the world with the fucked up tools they have.. and unless they act in such a way that I have to defend myself.. I assume their ignorance.. and I work against their interests.. but I don't wish them any specific harm.. nor do I celebrate their pain.
I do find it interesting that the people on the right do not attribute their opponents motivations to evil. but those on the left do..
I suspect that difference may be due to people on the right being better at understanding risk in real terms.. where the left seem to default to seeing catastrophic possibilities as the most likely occurrence..
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
I disagree completely with and think that even their thinking is extremely dangerous to the country and me personally.. but they aren't evil. they are, for the most part, dealing with the world with the fucked up tools they have.. and unless they act in such a way that I have to defend myself.. I assume their ignorance.. and I work against their interests.. but I don't wish them any specific harm.. nor do I celebrate their pain.
I do find it interesting that the people on the right do not attribute their opponents motivations to evil. but those on the left do..
The claim that the right doesn't attribute evil motivations to the left is completely disconnected from mainstream conservative rhetoric. Top political leaders, media hosts, and commentators routinely frame liberals not merely as misguided, but as actively malicious, using terms like demonic, traitors, groomers, 'Marxists intent on destroying America,' and 'the enemy from within.' That is the literal definition of attributing malice over ignorance.
I can think someone is dangerous and not evil.. I tend to rely on Hanlons razor.. IE. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance.
It' s good that you personally attempt to apply Hanlon's Razor, but using your individual worldview to generalise the right ignores the actual media and political ecosystem. Millions of daily listeners hear that their opponents are part of 'pedophilic cabals' or 'actively trying to destroy Western civilization.' It'd be one thing if it was fringe chatter, but it's central to the movement's fundraising and rally messaging.
I suspect that difference may be due to people on the right being better at understanding risk in real terms.. where the left seem to default to seeing catastrophic possibilities as the most likely occurrence..
Claiming the right doesn't default to catastrophic possibilities is kind of insane. Ever heard the right say, "They're coming for your guns," "They want to destroy the nuclear family," "They're orchestrating the collapse of the country?" Catastrophic framing is a universal political tool used heavily across the entire spectrum, and is certainly not a unique trait of the left.
I honestly don't see how the arguments you made have any leg to stand on.
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u/Ihaveaboot Conservatism 23d ago
I mostly see this from the left, maybe because Reddit is heavily left leaning, and it's the only social media I follow. Examples are how mainstream Reddit celebrated Herman Cain's death, or idolizing Luigi Mangione as a vigilante hero.
The Luigi thing really bothered me - he is an entitled rich kid with mental issues who never even had UHC coverage. It sickens me that people idolize him.
It's one thing to push for justice when there's a perceived wrong doing. For HRC and Fauci, at least it followed a legal path, regardleas of if you agree or disagree with the premise.
And for what it's worth - the events of 1/6 genuinely me disgust me as well, I would not have pardoned a single one of them.
Likewise with the antifa kids who destroyed entire city blocks during BLM protests and were just let go with no charges.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
I'll respond on your point about Luigi since I know a decent amount about it, and because you said that one bothered you a lot.
I don't support what Luigi did either, but I can understand why people support him. He saw that CEO as a personification of a truely fucked up system that puts greed ahead of human life.
I think we can all agree that healthcare in the United States, and particularly insurance companies, are really broken to the point of extreme moral bankruptcy. Insurance companies absolutely have been, and continue to be responsible for countless deaths in both indirect and direct ways. Their jobs in many cases is to make getting services from them difficult, for the sole purpose of saving a few dollars here and there.
Not only was Brian Thompson the leader of one of the worst of the insurance companies, but he personally drove many of the most egregious enshittifications of the already shitty insurance industry.
There are almost too many things to list, but he spearheaded implementing automated AI coverage denials, not to mention how strongly he emphasized strict denials of coverage, with a credo you may have heard of called "deny, delay, depose." He knew his methods were killing people and he was fine with it. This went beyond just being strict with denials. They were not covering medical care that they absolutely should have paid for, knowing people would die. This was the system Brian created, and they got sued because it was so egregious. But it overall they still made money from it.
Add to that the fact that he personally got paid a kings ransom was the nail in the coffin for a lot of people. Many people saw him as basically killing people for a paycheck. And it's gross that that description isn't exactly wrong.
And again, I don't think it was right to kill him, but I do think that Brian Thompson was a parasite to our society, in an industry that is a cancer to our society. A parasitic cancer. I can see how a mentally unstable person would be angry towards him and would see his death as a good thing.
And honestly the sick part is his murder almost certainly did save many lives. United Healthcare's denial rates decreased by about 15% after his death. In other words his murder gave the c-suite pause, and put a spotlight on them because for a moment they feared reprisals for the over-denying of their patients.
Its terrible his family will have to live without him, and murder is never a good solution. But Luigi's outrage wasn't completely misplaced.
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u/gntxs Conservatism 22d ago
I don't support racism and lynchings, but I can understand why people support it.
I guess you and I think alike.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 19d ago
I'm not sure how serious to take your post, or if you felt like you were having a gotcha moment, but clearly conflating racial bigotry with outrage over corporate malpractice is a absurd false equivalence, for so many reasons.
For one, lynchings targeted innocent people based on their race enforce racial supremacy. Public anger toward insurance executives stems from deliberate corporate decisions, automated denial algorithms, and profit models that result in real-world suffering and death for paying policyholders, etc.
Two, lynch mobs represented a dominant majority terrorizing vulnerable, disenfranchised minorities to maintain a hierarchy. Outrage over healthcare denials comes from powerless consumers feeling crushed by multi-billion dollar corporate monopolies. The power dynamic is completely reversed.
Three, with regards to insinuating I support the murder just because I said I understand why it happened:
Historians, sociologists, criminologists, etc. analyze the social drivers behind lynchings, riots, and political violence all the time to try to understand why they happen and where the perpetrators are coming from. Understanding and explaining the systemic grievances and motives that fuel public rage & violence is not moral approval.
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u/Ihaveaboot Conservatism 22d ago
Let's cut to the chase. You are making argument on Reddit why you are semi-OK with cold blooded murder.
Don't be wishy-washy about it. "It was wrong, but I get it". Horseshit. It was cold blooded murder by a disturbed young white guy.
Do you hold the same stance on the 20 year old kid that shot up Sandy Hook and killed 20 kids?
In my mind it's the same thing.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 22d ago
Do you hold the same stance on the 20 year old kid that shot up Sandy Hook and killed 20 kids? In my mind it's the same thing.
Equating Sandy Hook to this is a massive stretch. Sandy Hook was the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent six-year-old children who hadn't harmed anyone. The shooting of Brian Thompson was targeted vigilantism directed at a CEO who oversaw a system that routinely denied medical coverage to sick people, that absolutely resulted in innocent people dying.
Pointing out that difference isn't me approving of murder or vigilantism, it’s simply recognizing that there's a difference between indiscriminate mass slaughter and targeted political vigilantism.
Let's cut to the chase. You are making argument on Reddit why you are semi-OK with cold blooded murder.
Don't be wishy-washy about it. "It was wrong, but I get it". Horseshit. It was cold blooded murder by a disturbed young white guy.
To be clear: Pointing out the reason a crime happened, and having an understanding/discussing as to why someone might be motivated to do it is not the same as condoning it.
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u/Ihaveaboot Conservatism 22d ago
Luigi was a rich, entitled, spoiled rotten kid. He never had UHC insurance, but decided it was a good idea to murder their CEO. He needed mental help.
I am worried that most of reddit does as well.
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u/Ihaveaboot Conservatism 23d ago
Ok, I guess I need to catch up on how UHC adjusted their rates because of him.
National rates increase by the day, as providers and facities charge more and more.
My initial thought was - holy shit, all HC payors now need to hire private security for their board. Which costs $$$, and will be reflected in ALL of our premiums going up.
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u/Recent_Weather2228 Religious Conservatism 23d ago
It's completely genuine
As a Christian, I am called to love my enemies. I want what is best for them, and that includes being punished for evil. It's bad for a person to get away with bad things. It is better for them to be brought to justice.
Fauci is a terrible person who deserves to face justice for his crimes and spend a long time in jail. I do not wish for him to get cancer or be murdered. That would be a bad thing. I wish for him to be justly punished for his evil actions, and I wish for him to repent of his sins and believe in Christ.
Biden is also a terrible person who did a lot of bad things for our country. I feel compassion towards him for the cancer he is going through, because he is a human being, and like Fauci I wish for him to repent of his sins and believe in Christ.
There is no contradiction between pointing out someone's bad actions and not wishing ill on them. That is in fact the normal way to look at people under a Christian worldview.
A certain subset of the Left does respond very differently. It's not the entire Left, because many of them do still have the vestiges of Christian influence on our society. But many of them celebrate any and all negative things that happen to people on the Right, and that is bad and immoral.
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
Thanks for the insight.
I guess I'm still having a hard time understanding how so many people (not necessarily you) can simultaneously think that a person is a mass murderer/traitor/criminal of the highest order, that they are definitely going to hell, and in many cases (like Fauci, Hillary, and Biden to name a few) are calling for them to be imprisoned or executed, but the same people are also wishing them good health and a long life.
Can you understand how that seems hard to believe that someone could hold both positions? Is it a matter of them WANTING or aspiring to be so forgiving and benevolent, or do you really think they are that saintly? I find it really hard to believe, so to me it seems like they are lying to the public or to themselves. But you truely believe most of the people making these comments are truely that benevolent?
Another questio--and based on your initial response I think I know the answer--but is it fair to assume that you rebuke Trump for the heinous things he's said about others' deaths/health issues, like Biden, Mueller, Reiner, Dingell, etc.?
I imagine this apparent lack of morality and decency really bothers you. Or do I have it wrong and you feel differently?
Thank you for the discourse either way.
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u/sneed_feedseed Religious Conservatism 23d ago
How can someone say that someone else is definitely going to hell?
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u/Mannzis Esteemed Guest 23d ago
I agree that the statement is almost nonsensical from a Christian/biblical standpoint, since A. It's not our place to judge and B. Anyone can be forgiven and redeemed, but nevertheless I have seen many, many people express a similar sentiment with regards to the three I mentioned above (Fauci, Hillary, and Biden), but also a lot of others. It's been a common sentiment in religious forums and the conservative subreddit, and sadly some religious leaders/blowhards have echoed this.
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