քարոզչություն Ukraine officially refused to recognize the Armenian genocide in the Ottoman Empire Spoiler

https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2022/01/12/ukraina-otkazalas-oficialno-priznavat-genocid-armyan-v-osmanskoy-imperii

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88% Upvoted

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Imagine letting politics get in the way of historical facts... Just the fucked up way the world works

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u/Geniusman666 Jan 18 '22

We don't recognize Holodomor as a genocide, so why should they recognize Armenian Genocide, Turkey is helping them modernize their army, while we are are their potential enemy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Afaik there is no academic consensus of Holodomor qualifying as Genocide.

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u/Geniusman666 Jan 18 '22

Because of Stalin 3.5 (exact number is unknown) million Ukrainians died. And it was horrendous. I don't care does Holodomor fit the definition of "Genocide" but People responsible for it should have been held accountable for their crimes but instead Stalin is celebrated as a national hero in now days Russia. Also nowdays Recognizing Genocide is more of a political move

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u/Lionsledbypod Jan 18 '22

Raphael Lemkin, the man inspired by the Armenian Genocide to create the field of genocide studies, considered the Holodomor a genocide.

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u/FashionTashjian Armenia Jan 18 '22

It's plainly not taught in schools here; a remnant of Soviet legacy - "we fucked up really badly so nobody let anyone speak of it!"

I was surprised my wife had no idea it ever happened, as it's one of the greatest failures of the Soviets - infamous & known across the world. She's rather open minded to put it mildly, but it was entirely absent from her school curriculum.

A shame. This whole Soviet pride notion almost outdoes frontier-era Americans in sense of national pride at scale and how history is taught in public schools.

Everything I was taught about Soviet history in the US turned out to be 100% true, and then the internet happened and we found out that both nations were on par for disgusting fuckups.

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u/lealxe Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 18 '22

It's plainly not taught in schools here

I mean, many millions of people died. Not only in Ukraine. People making the decisions did deliberately choose to sell grain abroad to get industrial equipment while people were dying, deeming it worth the deaths.

So I agree that this was a mass murder, but calling it a genocide of specifically Ukrainians is hypocrisy.

This did happen, and Ukrainians are right in remembering it for what it is.

Soviet losses and contribution to WWII also did happen, and people are right in remembering it for what it is.

But supporting the narrative of the Ukrainian government with Holodomor is very similar to supporting the narrative of the current Russian regime about WWII.

Fuck both.

That's sadly a propaganda instrument to show that Ukraine was "oppressed" by USSR, while it was almost as important to it as Russia and Ukrainians had similar input into this state. Sort of like Austria after the war avoided the reputational component of being a core part of Nazi Germany.

Ah, and the common Ukrainian position on Armenian-Turkish and Armenian-Azeri relations makes one wonder why do they even complain about Holodomor, if that's all right by them.

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u/FashionTashjian Armenia Jan 18 '22

Agreed. Holodomor wasn't a planned erasement in the sense that other genocides were. It was the supreme degree of horrible mismagement of resources. Extremely tragic but it wasn't like Stalin plotted how to exterminate millions - he was inept at his job.

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u/lealxe Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 18 '22

It was the supreme degree of horrible mismagement of resources.

I can't agree, everybody in the Soviet hierarchy involved was perfectly aware what was happening.

The actual orders in the preserved documents were formulated roughly as "there are counterrevolutionary elements hiding bread and pretending that there is a famine, punish them and take the norm set by the plan". They seem too delusional to think that anybody actually believed that.

Stalin and those close to him decided that their modernization not slowing down was worth couple of millions people dying from hunger, and those lower in the ranks were afraid to stick out their necks. It's as simple as that.

TL;DR: They did have the resources to alleviate the famine, but this would delay all those cute world dominance plans, which required military industries to be in place. They chose.

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u/FashionTashjian Armenia Jan 18 '22

But isn't that a rather textbook definition of mismanagement? "I wanted to dominate the world so I ended up starving millions."

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u/lealxe Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 18 '22

No, this is a series of deliberate choices. 1941-1942 is mismanagement.

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u/FashionTashjian Armenia Jan 18 '22

Maybe I'm clueless, but the entire Soviet Empire seemed to be a prolonged series of mismanagements. It's entirety is responsible for making the US look much better during the 20th century. Between the USSR & China the US was the only powerhouse nation which wasn't mismanaged to such a degree.

Corruption? Yes. Helping its citizens survive? No, much better managed. I'm no fan of the US but they managed development much better than the aforementioned two powers, and they weren't even around for 300 years compared to how long the Russian Empire/USSR & China have been.

Russia during Soviet times put their hand way too deep down into to cookie jar.

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u/lealxe Artashesyan Dynasty Jan 19 '22

Maybe I'm clueless, but the entire Soviet Empire seemed to be a prolonged series of mismanagements.

These are not mutually exclusive, it can be "mismanagement" and "series of deliberate choices" at the same time. And as your typical Stalinist will say that these were necessary sacrifices as part of class struggle and industrialization of USSR in order to fight imperialism by bringing about world revolution - can one really call something done with results matching the intent a mismanagement?

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u/spetcnaz Yerevan Jan 18 '22

You are absolutely correct. Holodomor was not taught to us. Whoever kinda knows about it, knows the "oh there was some food shortage and some people died, anyway" version.

Yeah, both US and the Soviets taught things that benefited them. For example in the US, the Cuban Missile Crisis is taught starting from "Soviets brought missiles into Cuba", conveniently forgetting the previously installed missiles in Turkey.

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u/Geniusman666 Jan 18 '22

They don't teach us about it because famine didn't affect us that much, and I have never met anyone who is content about how history(especially international) is thought in our schools. They hardly mention Holocaust, if you don't have good history teacher you are not going remember anything from history class.

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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Also nowdays Recognizing Genocide is more of a political move

Well kinda but if there's no academic consensus on the issue I don't see why Armenia should recognize it as Genocide...

It's a bit unfair to say that Ukraine doesn't recognize the Armenian Genocide because we don't recognize Holodomor as Genocide when the former qualifies as a Genocide by the overwhelming majority of academics and has been so for many decades. Ultimately, of course I don't really care much what Ukraine decides.

but instead Stalin is celebrated as a national hero in now days Russia

Well that's their issue tbh, not ours.

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u/Geniusman666 Jan 18 '22

You're right historians are divided, whether Holodomor is genocide, that is ,was it intentional, targeted against Ukrainians or was Stalin a dick. Soviet Union wasn't most transparent country, and Putin closed Soviet archives and is refusing to open them, historians can't even determine how many people died. And even if we recognize Holodomor as a Genocide, They still won't recognize Armenian, because Turkey is HUGE ally to them, they supported them politicly in Crimea and Donbass and are helping them modernize their military, Turkey is doing more for Ukraine then it's supposed European "allies".

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u/Idontknowmuch Jan 18 '22

It is genocide if the acts are carried out with intent, as in, the perpetrators know that the acts are destroying a group as such, irrespective of the motives or reasons behind the acts.

So, even if it were to redirect food supplied elsewhere, for whatever reason, even if the motive was not to destroy the group, as long as they were aware that these acts would end up destroying the group, and morose continued to commit the acts, then it is genocide.