r/armenia • u/theonefrombaku • Dec 04 '21
Falsification/propaganda / Կեղծում/քարոզչություն 10 prisoners of Armenian ethnicity were handed over to Armenia
https://www.dtx.gov.az/az/news/1667.html•
u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21
based on the principles of humanism
Flaired for that.
Not even terrorists would say that using hostages is humanism.
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u/yeeterboy21 Canada Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21
Watch them say now there are no more prisoners, then in a few months they give more after Armenia gives something
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u/_areg_ Dec 04 '21
"We thank the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation for its mediation mission in obtaining mine maps."
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Dec 04 '21
The punishment for murdering an Armenian citizen on camera by the Azerbaijani military is that the Russian peacekeepers make the Turks hand over the pows that they were supposed to.
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u/fizziks Dec 04 '21
Aaand Armenia takes another L.
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Dec 04 '21
10 of our guys are now home where they belong and to you that's an L?
Seriously don't get you guys... either the government isnt doing enough to bring our POWs back... or they shouldnt be giving maps (mine maps to territory legally recognized as part of Azerbaijan and places very few Armenians ever expect to go back to) because every person here is a world class negotiator.
Armenians need to stop constantly bitching for a bit, sit in silent prayer and thank every God you can think of that 10 of our boys will spend their holidays with their families.
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
Rewarding hostage taking encourages more hostage taking. We literally predicted they'd keep doing this if we allowed the POWs to be treated as bargaining chips.
You don't need to be a world class negotiator to see the obvious.
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u/r_kobra Dec 05 '21
lmfao this kid basically says that nobody’s opinion here is valid as nobody here is a world class negotiator, and then goes on to spew his worthless opinion.
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Dec 05 '21
Let's play a fun game:
You now lead the country. You've lost a devastating war (one you found out that the previous government before you knew since 2012 that we would lose and did next to nothing to prepare for). You're in charge of a crisis the likes of which we haven't seen in 3 generations.
There's about 200 of our guys in dungeons in Baku. Their parents are constantly blocking roads, asking for updates (rightfully so) and desperate to have them home. You have a global superpower run by a kleptocrat dictator who doesn't like you, and wants you to reneg on your promises to be open and transparent with your electorate.
Your enemy is also a kleptocrat thief dictator who is now in charge of many 'big red buttons' that can pretty much finish the job he started last year because of how crippled our defences are.
Your job is to negotiate something favourable to us, while also bringing home our boys, despite not having many bargaining chips (other than a corridor through your country which would effectively be suicide).
BUT here's the kicker: you cant concede anything at all since apparently that would be encouraging more such behaviour.
What do you do?
Let's go mate - you got this :)
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
You're just dodging the issue and not being half as clever as you are being glib.
What good does exchanging maps for POWs do if they just replenish the POWs and you're back at square one, minus some maps? Think this through seriously instead of responding with glibness and dismissing the criticism reflexively because it's leveled against Pashinyan (who doesn't need Putin to encourage lack of transparency btw).
We don't really have much control over the POW situation, that's the grim reality. It's going to take outside forces to compel Aliyev to release them. Playing into his game isn't doing anyone in Armenia any favors, apart from getting Pashinyan well-timed PR just before the election.
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Dec 05 '21
dismissing the criticism reflexively because it's leveled against Pashinyan (who doesn't need Putin to encourage lack of transparency btw).
Criticize ALL your government officials, as much as possible - just do it intelligently. They have much to be blamed for, just make sure it's the right things.
"It's going to take outside forces to compel Aliyev to release them"
Every Armenian politician, from our president on business trips to the Arab world, down to lowly ambassadors, have been asking, begging and pushing for help on this.
"You don't need to be a world class negotiator to see the obvious."
You made this claim. Stop calling me glib and back it up.
Give us the obvious solution. Right now we have 200 guys in Baku. Do we leave them there to not encourage more of it? Do we negotiate in which case there's going to be a quid pro quo?
It's obvious but I must have missed it. Give me a solution and if you can't - you're part of the problem...
This Armenian culture of just complaining without ever offering anything tangible is a HUGE weakness of ours.
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
"You don't need to be a world class negotiator to see the obvious." You made this claim. Stop calling me glib and back it up. Give us the obvious solution.
I did not claim that there was an obvious solution. I think my last comment was pretty clear that I don't think there is any solution that's readily available to the Armenian government, hence my saying it can only be resolved if outside actors resolve it.
What I did say is rewarding hostage taking incentivizes hostage taking. That is axiomatic, in other words, obvious. Let's refrain from constructing straw men here.
Do we leave them there to not encourage more of it? Do we negotiate in which case there's going to be a quid pro quo?
Hostages are going to be held unless and until outside actors force Aliyev to release them or as part of a grand bargain that addresses a lot of the outstanding issues at once. Exchanging maps for a few hostages only for more hostages to be taken to replace them isn't a solution to the problem and in all probability makes it worse, so no, we shouldn't legitimize hostage taking by making these exchanges.
Furthermore, giving up the mine maps reduces our negotiating position in any potential grand bargain with Azerbaijan. Not only will we not have the maps as bargaining chips, but their redevelopment and repopulation of the territories will be expedited, changing conditions on the ground. I'm not for for having our leverage slowly bled out for easily reversible hostage releases.
It's obvious but I must have missed it. Give me a solution and if you can't - you're part of the problem...
Pretending something that isn't a solution to the problem is a solution is not helping anything. Sometimes it's better to do nothing than to do more harm. Political leaders not having frank discussions with their population and owning the difficult decisions that serve long-term interests are a problem, not people pointing it out. Just jumping up and down screaming that the government should do something in response to a problem without sober contemplation of the costs and benefits of that something is a problem.
This Armenian culture of just complaining without ever offering anything tangible is a HUGE weakness of ours.
I would argue that not listening to people who disagree with you and glibly dismissing their thoughts is a serious weakness of Armenian society. It's perfectly ok for us to have differing views on an issue like this; it's not ok to dismiss reasonable critiques of the government's policies as being unreasonable "constant bitching" or merely "complaining".
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Dec 05 '21
Sorry but you've offered nothing in this response.
"Not only will we not have the maps as bargaining chips, but their redevelopment and repopulation of the territories will be expedited, changing conditions on the ground."
I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment here, but I also don't believe these lands will be repopulated in any meaningful way. People won't just up and leave Baku in massive numbers nor will there be any economic incentive to go there. Shushi is already being carved up by different Oligarchs and Aliyev's family and is becoming a kind of potemkin village with lavish spending but requiring 3 Russian checkpoints to even enter...
The minemaps are not some super valuable bargaining chip that will cost us our future.
"is a solution is not helping anything."
Not helping? Say that to the 10 families (now well over 100 actually) who have their sons home.
You did however say this:
"Sometimes it's better to do nothing than to do more harm."
So to be crystal clear here: Your position is that they should be left in Baku, we should not be negotiating anything in return for their release, and should wait for more international pressure in order to make it happen... Is that correct?
I want to know what your actual position is.
Mine is simple: we lost the war. We're in a tough spot. The Azeris will keep doing this shit and it makes them look awful on the international stage.
Right now, the European Court of Human Rights has made many many rulings the Azeris are ignoring. The European Parliament as well as various countries have publicly urged them to hand over the POWs, heck Biden himself in an official statement did so. It's done nothing.
The truth is that rebuilding our army, reorganizing our society and building a powerful economy are what is going to deter this sort of behaviour.
Until then let them have the goddamn maps so our boys come home.
It may not be what you like, and I understand your sentiment, but I think you're wrong here.
We're weak, maps or no maps, negotiations or no negotiations, the Azeris will keep poking and poking.
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment here, but I also don't believe these lands will be repopulated in any meaningful way. People won't just up and leave Baku in massive numbers nor will there be any economic incentive to go there.
Time will tell, but your comment implies voluntary behavior. Azerbaijan is a dictatorship and if Aliyev is hellbent on placing people in those territories, he'll find whatever carrots and sticks he needs to make it happen.
Not helping? Say that to the 10 families (now well over 100 actually) who have their sons home.
The problem with this argument is that it ignores the increased likelihood of more people being taken hostage because it increases the incentives to capture them. It doesn't do any favors for the families of people who are going to be captured in response to the rewards.
I get tired of the constant appeals to emotion. Armenians need to set their emotions aside when it comes to policy making and be cold, hard pragmatists. That doesn't diminish the tragedy of the situation in any way, but we can't lose sight of the big picture. It's annoying to have people ignore the substantive arguments here in favor of trying to paint the other side as less caring of the POWs. If I genuinely thought it wouldn't just result in new POWs being taken, I'd be more sympathetic to the argument in favor of making these exchanges.
So to be crystal clear here: Your position is that they should be left in Baku, we should not be negotiating anything in return for their release, and should wait for more international pressure in order to make it happen... Is that correct?
No, that's not correct. I did not say that Armenia should "wait" for international pressure to make it happen, or that such pressure is even likely to happen. I said that is something that could make it happen, not that it will happen.
As for the first part of the argument, I don't think I've been unclear, but I'll repeat myself: it is preferable for the existing hostages to remain in Baku for now over exchanging maps or providing any other kind of reward for their exchange. I've stated my reasons, but I'll do so again: 1) it will encourage new hostages to be taken, thus resulting in no net improvement to the problem from the perspective of Armenian society, and 2) it undermines the long-term interests of Armenia and Artsakh by depriving us of leverage to bring about the least worst possible outcome to the negotiations.
We can debate the degree to which the maps etc. have value as bargaining chips, but IMO Aliyev's obsession with obtaining them is pretty telling.
This is not to say that we do nothing to bring them back. Obviously releasing the hostages is a prerequisites for any kind of comprehensive agreement. We just have to be cold and pragmatic about it and make it clear Aliyev won't get any additional concessions for hostages, especially in side deals outside of a comprehensive agreement.
If it's clear that there is no value to holding the hostages and he gets nothing out of it but international condemnation, he's going to be less eager to take new hostages or continue holding the existing ones, especially if a bigger deal is on the table. Presumably, any comprehensive agreement we would accept would have controls in place to prevent future hostage taking. Until we get to that point, we're just treading water by exchanging things for hostages that will just be replaced with new hostages.
The truth is that rebuilding our army, reorganizing our society and building a powerful economy are what is going to deter this sort of behaviour.
You won't get any disagreement from me on that point.
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u/bonjourhay Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
Remember warning for the alleged personal attack against this redditor -
This is not a discussion or debate since it comes down to an ideology difference: here thinking that you can always solve problems by trading whereas you have fascist countries facing you which only goal is to stay in power, by definition.
That’s the biggest issue armenia will face in the next 5 years. It’s not turkey and azerbaijan, it is random dudes coming from western countries, applying western concepts to a region that still lives in the early 20th century. If they succeed it will be basically selling off the few assets armenia still has until there is none, then flee the country using their second passport obviously.
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u/FashionTashjian Armenia Dec 05 '21
Bokavitch doesn't take kindly to criticism of his comments.
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
:)
Tbf, he wasn't criticizing my comment. I took issue with dismissing criticism of the hostage trades as just "bitching".
I think there's a substantive critique of making those trades that should be engaged with on its own merits instead of just blowing it off because some of the people on that side of the argument are obnoxious.
As anyone who knows me on this sub already knows, I'm not a fan of the dashnaks or most of the diaspora talking heads either, but that doesn't mean they can't come down on the right side of an issue once in a while. I don't like seeing Armenian society fall into the trap of binary political polarization like we have in the US,. I'm seeing people be far too quick to dismiss ideas because of their perceived pro/anti Nikol/Old Guard associations and it's frustrating.
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Dec 05 '21
I'm sure he means well. I dont think anyone here wants anything other than the advancement of Armenia. But the point is we need to stop being so reactive, so emotional and get real.
I like disagreement. I think it's super healthy. I dont want us to be united and all think the same. Chaos breeds new ideas and new ideas breed advancement... So this is all necessary :)
Patience... We'll get there. I have hope and faith in our people.
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u/fizziks Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21
1) Azerbaijan attacks sovereign Armenian territory
2) Azerbaijan takes Armenian hostages
3) Armenia gives maps
4) Hostages returned
Please explain how this is not a L.
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Dec 04 '21
[deleted]
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u/fizziks Dec 04 '21
Those maps aren’t even accurate
You actually have no idea if they’re accurate or not you’re just saying this as a cope. Afaik the last time we gave maps Az claimed that they were inaccurate but that could have just been a negotiation tactic. The fact that they used our troops as leverage again to get new maps leads me to believe that they are at least semi-accurate.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21
If you follow Azerbaijan's internal affairs with respect to say political prisoners vis-a-vis its relations with Council of Europe, you can see that it's a time-tested modus-operandi of Azerbaijan to use prisoners as barter. There is always about 10-15 political prisoners in Azerbaijan, kept on purposes for negotiations, once the date arrives with the CoE on some relevant topic related to human rights, Azerbaijan releases about 10 or so, and after the approval from the relevant European institution, Aliyev immediately takes another 10 prisoners. For the next round.
What we are seeing has NOTHING to do with any mine maps.
The mine maps excuse was made up to "both-side" this Aliyev's modus operandi of negotiations using hostages. And the US, France and Russia as well as the EU have gone along with this and played this game.
This would've also kept on occurring if no mines even existed. Just like how Azerbaijan is doing the same with its internal political prisoners.
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u/psixus Dec 04 '21
The correct action would be to assume those POWs are dead. National interest > individual lives
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u/glazedpenguin Lebanon Dec 04 '21
This isnt Civ V bro. Youre talking about real human beings with families.
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u/psixus Dec 05 '21
I understand, but compassion doesn't make a good strategy. There is a reason countries don't negotiate with terrorists - because it encourages more terrorism.
It's actually worse in this case, it encourages both terrorism from Az and surrender from Arm soldiers.
Down vote if you want, but it's obvious that I'm right
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Dec 04 '21
[deleted]
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u/psixus Dec 04 '21
Not in exchange for a deterrent such as minefields... Last I checked we are still at war and minefields are a deterrent
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Dec 05 '21
this is disgusting and exactly what is wrong with armenian collectivism.
People in glendale: 'WE SHOULDVE CONTINUED THE WAR'
Diasporans who don't serve in the army under shit generals: *changes FB profile picture to 'with our army'.
Armenians everywhere: PASHINYAN SAID NO ONE LIVES IN SHUSHI HOW DARE HE *doesn't move to Shushi in the 30 years we had it*
NIKOL IS SELLING OUR LANDS!!! *stays in Paris... LA... Boston and visits Armenia every three summers for a month.
Not a POW nor has children in Baku dungeons "our national interests over individuals!!!"
Turns off computer, back to ordering Uber eats while playing Dota.
Collectivism is a cancer. Armenians need to get their heads out of their ass and get serious about state building. This mentality can't continue.
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u/psixus Dec 05 '21
Emotional reactions to real problems - THAT'S what's wrong.
By giving away minemaps or any other strategic concessions for POWs Arm gov is encouraging the following: 1. More POW capture by Az 2. Higher likely of surrender by Arm soldiers 3. Gradual loss of strategic positions
You are actually making things worse for all Armenia.
The fact that it's someone's child is irrelevant - everyone in the world is someone's child.
I bet if we take some POWs from Az, they will just announce them as KIA and forget about them - it's brutal, but it's a better play strategically.
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Dec 05 '21
- we lost a war. To the victor goes the spoils, this isnt breaking news.
- our army was obliterated. We have maybe a few thousand professional soldiers in fighting shape.
- we have internal instability
- It'll take 10 years to reform and rebuild.
- Until then, we'll be taking a lot of "Ls" that may seem painful to you but are a reality of living in defeat... The point is to not make it hurt badly enough that we cant recover.
- They havent taken Syunik yet... If they want pieces of paper in exchange for our guys - I'll gladly give it to them.
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u/psixus Dec 05 '21
Not pieces of paper, map that will allow them to strengthen their victory...
Do I need to remind you how Az exploits any piece of paper? I.e. UN resolutions...
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u/r_kobra Dec 04 '21
mine maps to territory legally recognized as part of Azerbaijan and places very few Armenians ever expect to go back to)
Ah yes, we should respect Azerbaijan's legally recognized territorial integrity, just as they respect Syuni-I mean Zangezur's territorial integrity.
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Dec 05 '21
where did you see me write any of that?
you had 30 years to move to the thriving metropolis of aghdam you seem to love... they can have the goddamn maps, i want our boys home.
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u/_areg_ Dec 04 '21
"territory legally recognized as part of Azerbaijan" what i just read
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u/NoArms4Arm Dec 04 '21
Unfortunately, you read what the Armenian government has agreed with for decades. I don't agree with Armenia's methodology over these years but these are the results of it we must all accept
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Dec 04 '21
In their mindset, Armenia needs to launch some kind of Israel style offensive and put baku under seige until they release our people.
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u/glazedpenguin Lebanon Dec 04 '21
Israel-style? The fuck?
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u/SadCampCounselor Dec 04 '21
I agree. the only comparison we should aspire to is how effective the Israeli\Jewish diaspora is in organizing abroad.
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u/glazedpenguin Lebanon Dec 04 '21
Good news is we dont have an apartheid state to support. Just same old hayastan.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
Agree with you. Some people want war, some people want peace. To be fair, none of these two options is easy.
But complaining about an event which saves lives - both by returning prisoners and giving out mine maps, seems too harsh, too hypocritical, too ill-minded
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u/Dana--White Dec 04 '21
You still have 100+ PoW's from last year you were supposed to return as per the Nov 8 ceasefire agreement. Instead you have kept them as a leverage and used them basically for ransom, no different from how any typical terror group works. And you still have the audacity to demand Armenia to adhere to the agreement points that benefit Azerbaijan, even those that are not even in the agreement.
Now you continue to kidnap both civilians and take soldiers hostage knowing very well that Armenia does not want to start another war without any backing.
So all in all, people are right to complain, because your nation as a whole is ill-minded.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
While this is not the topic of the current post of mine, I will reply to your comment.
The prisoners that your claim should have been returned per the agreement signed on the 10th of November were not prisoners when it was the 10th of November, 2020. Neither Armenia, nor Azerbaijan claims that they were prisoners at the time of the signing.
All of those guys were taken prisoner after the aforementioned date.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21
All of those guys were taken prisoner after the aforementioned date.
Yeah, by Azerbaijan violating the ceasefire and provisions of the ceasefire statement which you keep on citing.
Funny how that circular logic works.
The reality is that Azerbaijan has been historically violating every single agreement, including the first provision of the Nov 10th statement without any consequences, and therefore will keep on violating it until things get out of hand either bilaterally or involving third parties.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
Azerbaijan has been historically violating every single agreement,
Again, while this is not the topic of the current post, I challenge you on your stance.
To my knowledge it was Armenia who has been historically violating the stuff that they had agreed to. Including but not limited to the occupation of Shusha, which happened whilst the ceasefire agreement was still ongoing, or the occupation of Agdam which again happened whilst the ceasefire agreement was still ongoing.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21
The very first and most important point has always been adherence to a permanent ceasefire as demanded above all else from the recognised parties to the conflict by the UNSC. Azerbaijan has never ever in this history of this conflict adhered to a real ceasefire let alone a permanent one.
That’s the first and most important thing to resolve conflicts.
The rest is all secondary. And bullshit to be frank.
Azerbaijan goes around crying about all kinds of bullshit when it never even adhered to the very basic principe of not being an absolute troglodyte and stop using violence, stop killings, stop being a barbaric entity using force to solve all and every political problem. Internally and externally. This is an inherent problem within the fabric of the Azeri regime which for some reason even normal Azeris here tend to have trouble denouncing.
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u/spetcnaz Yerevan Dec 05 '21
Fuck outta here with that shit.
Don't come here and play dumb word games.
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Dec 04 '21
[deleted]
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
I will not say fuck your country, because if I do, I will be banned from this sub. Nevertheless, if you would say the same in the Azerbaijani sub, you would probably be banned.
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u/Patient-Leather Dec 04 '21
People aren’t against mutual concessions and genuine gestures of goodwill. This is neither. It’s Azerbaijan kidnapping hostages anytime they want to get something one-sided.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
Come on. Of course Azerbaijan is trying to hurt Armenia through any means possible. The same way as Armenia has been doing over the last three decades.
I am not claiming that suddenly Azerbaijan became an angel and Armenia is a devil.
The same way, you cannot claim that Azerbaijan is a devil and Armenia is an angel..
If Azerbaijan is able to kidnap a whole team of soldiers from Armenia, you should probably direct your concerns towards the military leadership of Armenia, instead of blaming Azerbaijan.
The same way, if Armenia would capture whole bunch of our soldiers, I wouldn't be mad at Armenia, because you know, they are an enemy, instead I would be mad at our MoD.
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u/goldenboy008 Dec 04 '21
Come on. Of course Azerbaijan is trying to hurt Armenia through any means possible. The same way as Armenia has been doing over the last three decades.
Do you even know how many prisoners Armenia had during and after the first war? Hundreds if not thousands. In Khojaly only we had dozens or hundreds, which were all returned very quickly.
Armenia hasn't used prisoners the way Azerbaijan is. Don't even try to compare.
If Azerbaijan is able to kidnap a whole team of soldiers from Armenia, you should probably direct your concerns towards the military leadership of Armenia, instead of blaming Azerbaijan.
With that mindset it's okay for Israel to do whatever it wants against Palestinians? China against Uygurs? Russia against Ukraine? The victims shouldn't be mad?
Armenia just lost a huge portion of its army and is trying to rebuild whatever it can. Sure, it's going slowly and not everyone is competent but putting the blame on Armenia when Azerbaijan attacks Armenian sovereign territory? That's some new kind of mental gymnasitcs my guy.
The same way, if Armenia would capture whole bunch of our soldiers, I wouldn't be mad at Armenia, because you know, they are an enemy, instead I would be mad at our MoD.
Sure you wouldn't. So why were you mad on Armenia of capturing the 7 regions?
You sound very dehumanizing and look everything in the "survival of the strongest" way, just like most Turks and Azeris now. It's easy to live like that, until you are yourself the weaker side. I just hope you keep that same mentality when the wheel turns again.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
Do you even know how many prisoners Armenia had during and after the first war? Hundreds if not thousands. In Khojaly only we had dozens or hundreds, which were all returned very quickly
This is what you claim. But our side claims that there are more than 4000 missing people.
I believe the best solution is for the commission to be formed between Azerbaijan and Armenia, without any Russian, American or Turkish involvement, and to address all this remaining questions. I assure you, while you have so many questions, we have even more questions to be answered
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21
Way to skirt the main point:
Armenia hasn't used prisoners the way Azerbaijan is. Don't even try to compare.
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u/goldenboy008 Dec 04 '21
And where are those missing 4000 people? Missing =/= captured. Remember all the fake news during the war that Azerbaijan found prisoners from the first war? Even shared by beloved Khadija. Its all propaganda. The 4000 missing are surely dead. We even struggle to identify our deaths now, I imagine that 30 years ago it was much harder.
Fact remains that Armenia didn't use the prisoners like Azerbaijan and returned them.
What commission for what questions? We don't have questions. You know that such commissions don't exist. It's the Azeri way of saying "whatever you say man, I don't care". The simple fact remains that Azerbaijan is illegally holding pows, just to exerce pression against Armenia. No commission needed for that
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
What do you mean that such commissions don't exist. Since the end of the second war remnants of close to 2 thousands Armenian soldiers have been found and handed over to the Armenian side.
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u/goldenboy008 Dec 04 '21
What?? I don't think you know what a commission is. Allowing Armenians to search for dead soldiers isn't some kind of commission thing. Anyway, you're not answering any question and are derailing the subject every time. No point to waste more time
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21
The same way as Armenia has been doing over the last three decades.
That is simply false.
The level of utter contempt against the Armenian ethnicity let alone the Armenian nation your shit terrorist-KGB-petro-dynasty dictatorship and its barbaric supporters have demonstrated has no equivalence in all of Armenian history, but of course is par for the course with the nearby Turkic empires and wannabe empires of which Azerbaijan is trying to pathetically imitate.
(Added the word terrorist)
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
your shit KGB-petro-dynasty dictatorship and its barbaric supporters
Take it easy dude, we are trying to have a normal conversation around this positive piece of news. Why so aggressive?
Most of this sub seems to be happy about the return of the prisoners. Most of the Azerbaijani sub seems to be happy about the return of the mine maps.
Why are you trying to insult us in this occasion?
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21
What’s aggressive about that?
It’s the plain truth. Unless you are a regime affiliated person, in which case I’m glad you take it as an insult.
A truth which for some reason apparently normal people which I assume you are one cannot face and instead usually tend to eat the whole regime propaganda of force and violence being a solution to the problems. It’s not and it has never been. The sooner some of you realize this, the sooner some of YOU can also be the ones who may help resolve the conflict. This shouldn’t need explanation but for some reason it needs it.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
So you think that every Azerbaijani who is against Armenia is either a member of our shit KGB-petro-dynasty dictatorship or is one of its barbaric supporters?
This is not a kind of thinking which will bring peace to our region.
You are trying to portray all of our feelings through the single window of dictatorship. However, I have lived,worked and performed together with the people who are from Zengilan, Cebrayil, Lacin, Kelbecer. You cannot persuade me that all the stories that they have told me are regime affiliated propaganda.
This post is among a few, which benefits both Azerbaijan and Armenia. Please, don't turn it into your own personal agenda.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 04 '21
You are trying to portray all of our feelings through the single window of dictatorship
Armenia is dealing with that dictatorship. It is not dealing with what truly the Azerbainani people may have wanted under free conditions in the 90s or in 2020 or today. And that is not even bringing into the picture the other dictatorship to the west and the boatloads of minions it has to shape opinions related to its geopolitical interests, which includes Azerbaijanis as well.
Artsakh is being threatened with obliteration by that dictatorship.
Your dictatorship has done and keeps on doing whatever it wants and not a significant peep from any of you. And this is not even hyperbole. It is the cold truth.
This conflict could've been resolved a long time ago and yet one of the main reasons it kept on going is the autocratic nature of the regime which has monopolized the conflict, its resolution and its narrative.
We don't even know what Azerbaijanis want, there are no publicly available polls, no surveys, nothing reliable. Not before the war nor today. And no, you don't either.
What we do know is that the regime does what it feels like and gets away with it - and so far only an external force can put it in its place.
If you want an honest conversation, this is an honest conversation. Not bullshits about "my side says this, your side says this". Conflict resolution is to stop fighting first and then figure things out through mutual interests. This simple concept is unfathomable to a vast majority of Azerbaijanis Armenians come in contact with here.
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u/Patient-Leather Dec 04 '21
Again though the problem isn’t that prisoners are returned, it’s the circumstance in which those people were taken prisoner. These are some (not even all) of the guys captured during Azerbaijan’s latest attack on sovereign Armenian territory this November. It’s not anything positive by Azerbaijan in the slightest. It’s a disgustingly evil forced tradeoff. Not even mentioning that there are still 100+ other POWs from last year being kept.
It’s like me taking something of yours last week, giving it to you this week in return for something else from you, and then telling you that it’s a fair deal and you should be happy.
So while obviously it’s good that they are back, they should have never been held for so long in the first place. There is no goodwill in this gesture, it’s a draconian bargaining technique using people’s lives.
As others have pointed out to you, Armenia as the victor in the first war never used hostages or POWs as a bargaining chip even during the more chaotic 90s. I won’t be able to find that segment now, but Armenia’s then president Levon Ter Petrosyan in a recent interview pointed this out, that following the ‘94 agreement Armenia swiftly returned all captured soldiers since that is what a graceful (as much grace as can be in a war, obviously it’s a dirty affair all around) winning side does. Yet even in now victory Azerbaijan is acting like a sore loser.
Without pointing fingers at what side did what terrible stuff to the other (there is enough blame to go around) return of POWs is the least that can be done, especially by the winning side and especially after bloody hostilities are supposedly over. Yet here we have Azerbaijan going further and taking even more prisoners when it wants. I can be mad at Armenian military for not being able to prevent it, but that still doesn’t make it less fucked up behaviour.
In any case, I appreciate you trying to have a normal conversation and discussion here, even though obviously we have different thoughts and attitudes.
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u/theonefrombaku Dec 04 '21
As others have pointed out to you, Armenia as the victor in the first war never used hostages or POWs as a bargaining chip even during the more chaotic 90s
I genuinely think that you are not so educated about the first war. We were literally buying the corpses of our fallen. Some people were paying cash, some were paying with commodities. I am old enough to remember all the fucked up parts of the war.
By this post I am not trying to undermine you, or your ethnicity. I am not even sure why you took this good news so badly.
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u/Patient-Leather Dec 04 '21
I am also old enough to know the fucked up parts of the war. And I acknowledged them in my post. Whatever dirty interpersonal dealings there were or what certain opportunists did I am not excusing, it was a messy time and situation, I am talking about official government level stances here.
And again the news is good but the preceding steps are bad. Capture soldiers during invasion of another country’s sovereign territory - keep them imprisoned longer than necessary - return them only when you get something else - expect us to be happy and thankful? People are angry that any of this even had to happen.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/Regular_Blig_9339 Dec 05 '21
"Azerbaijan will continue to apply maximum pressure on Armenia" who tf do you think you are? The US? Your genius plan will eventually backfire. It is creating more hate.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
Azerbaijanis outnumbered Armenians 4:1 in NKAO and 7 adjacent regions
lol wtf kind of argument is that? The 7 adjacent regions have nothing to do with NKAO as a political entity and including them to pretend Azeris were the majority is idiotic. Armenians outnumbered Azeris 3:1 in the NKAO, the adjacent territories were a buffer and not disputed.
I can draw an arbitrary boundary that includes the NKAO and a bunch of Armenian regions too. Has literally nothing to do with anything involving NKAO self determination.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21
No, the surrounding territories were never claimed to be part of NKR. See the last article of the NKR constitution. The Armenian side agreed to return them as per the OSCE Minsk Group process.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21
The position of the Armenian side has been consistently that of backing the OSCE Minsk Group process including the agreed proposal of the 2007 Basic Principles. The side which in fact has always tried to undermine the UN-mandated process has always been Azerbaijan, as the clear example of the Azerbaijani-drafted UNGA resolution of 2008 testifies, which was of course rejected by the OSCE Minsk Group.
VIENNA, 17 March 2007 - The United States, France and the Russian Federation, in their capacity as Co-Chairmen of the OSCE Minsk Group dealing with the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, issued the following statement on March 14, 2008 in the United Nations General Assembly regarding their decision to vote against the 'Resolution on the Situation in the Occupied Territories of Azerbaijan':
"The political-level representatives of France, the Russian Federation, and the United States, as Co-Chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group dealing with the Nagorno-Karabakh (NK) conflict, jointly proposed a set of basic principles for the peaceful settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh (NK) conflict to the sides in November 2007 on the margins of the OSCE Ministerial Council in Madrid. These basic principles are founded on the provisions of the Helsinki Final Act, including those related to refraining from the threat or use of force, the territorial integrity of the states, and the equal rights and self-determination of peoples. The proposal transmitted to the sides in Madrid comprises a balanced package of principles that are currently under negotiation. The sides have agreed that no single element is agreed until all elements are agreed by the parties.
Unfortunately, this draft resolution selectively propagates only certain of these principles to the exclusion of others, without considering the Co-Chairs' proposal in its balanced entirety.
Because of this selective approach, the three OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chair countries must oppose this unilateral draft resolution. They reiterate that a peaceful, equitable, and lasting settlement of the NK conflict will require unavoidable compromises among the parties that reflect the principles of territorial integrity, non-use of force, and equal rights of peoples, as well as other principles of international law.
Well, you cannot enforce your demands while virtually everyone is against those
Only 39 out of 192 UN member states voted in favour of that UN General Assembly resolution for finalising the status of Nagorno-Karabakh to be within Azerbaijan.
That is not "everyone".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_62/243
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Dec 05 '21
No, the surrounding territories were never claimed to be part of NKR.
That's factually wrong.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21
Chapter 12: Final and Transitional Provisions
Article 175. Boundaries of Jurisdiction of the Republic of Artsakh
Until the restoration of the territorial integrity of the Republic of Artsakh and the delimitation of its borders, the public authority shall be exercised on the territory under factual jurisdiction of the Republic of Artsakh.
http://www.nkr.am/en/chapter-XII-final-and-transitional-provisions
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Dec 05 '21
Nobody recognizes this shit. Arayik guy was referring to Agdam as liberated Akna. Not that it has a value either but..
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21
It’s quite impressive that you jump in a conversation about the official stance of NKR to then immediately say that the official stance doesn’t matter when you are shown the NKR’s highest-level legal document on the subject.
Not that much consistency is ever expected by Azerbaijani users. Nor honest participation for that matter.
NKR agreed to the OSCE Minsk Group process and agreed for Armenia to represent itself in the process. The official stance of both Armenia and NKR has always been that those are not their territories and in fact that they have to be given back given they agreed to and always fully backed the OSCE Minsk Group process.
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
Karabakh issue is existential for Azerbaijan
No it’s not.
It is an existential issue for Nagorno-Karabakh itself given that Azerbaijan and people like you want it destroyed.
Azerbaijanis outnumbered Armenians 4:1 in NKAO …
That is patently false. The Armenian side only has cared about former NKAO not the surrounding districts.
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u/vichistor Dec 05 '21
Karabakh issue is existential for Azerbaijan
Karabakh issue is existential for Aliyev & family. Without it, they would be out long ago.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
Ilham Aliyev has been pressured by the society to start a war ever since he took office
Do you have any reliable independent polls/surveys suggesting a majority of Azerbaijanis wanted to go to war, in 80s, 90s, 2000's, 2010's?
Why do you think Aliyev has not allowed any independent organizations to carry out activity in Azerbaijan, including polling, news and those promoting peace, eh?
Why do you think Aliyev has killed all peace platforms, including track II diplomacy?
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Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
I do not have access to a poll
Then you cannot back what you said. Period.
Speaking on behalf of a whole people of what everyone wants is asinine to begin with.
A relatively small protest in 2020 means nothing in a country which doesn't allow any protests and orchestrates every single PR in the country, and which was also preparing for war from before July 2020 as has been revealed and does not even relate to what all people wanted at that time, nor more importantly prior to 2020, in 2010s, 2000s, 1990s and 1980s - the whole period where the Baku authoritarian and repressive regime has been in power - which has been in all of its history since the Soviets took over at least until today monopolising every discourse including that related to the conflict.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/Idontknowmuch Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21
it would not illegally populate them with Armenians from Syria and Lebanon
That’s a dumb propaganda.
The few people who were living outside of Nagorno-Karabakh were mostly made up of IDPs from Shahumyan from the first war who settled there in the 90s.
It’s idiotic to believe that the Armenian side ever wanted to or attempted to settle anyone in the surrounding territories. Idiotic because of facts on the ground, needs and demand, legal implications and above all, reality - but in a world where reality is shaped by Baku propaganda everything seems to be possible for some Azerbaijanis.
For the Armenian side, the core issue of the conflict from the soviet era up until today has always exclusively been the former NKAO and only the former NKAO.
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
I remember 100s of Azerbaijani civilians who were taken prisoner during the first war and were returned only as a result of ransom paid by their relatives.
Provide a credible source for this claim or I'm removing the comment as propaganda/disinformation.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
I said credible source, like an NGO or reputable news organization not affiliated with either side, preferably contemporary to the events in question. You can find these for things like Khojali, for example.
Aliyev's state propaganda outlet is not remotely credible.
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Dec 05 '21
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u/bokavitch Dec 05 '21
Yes, they forgot to tell anyone for 25 years until Aliyev's state propagandists, who would never instruct anyone to say anything untrue, showed up to record a propaganda piece.
Last year your sub was circle jerking to the mythical "Maragha Massacre" which had never once been mentioned in any publication in Azerbaijan or elsewhere until very recently...
Weird how a government that spends millions of dollars dehumanizing Armenians 24/7 didn't bother to use such juicy material for decades and suddenly remembered to talk about these things that have never been mentioned by anyone to anyone and for which there is zero evidence.
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Dec 05 '21
You're asking people who live in the North Korea of the caucasus to provide a credible source.
Don't hold your breath :)
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u/norgrmaya Cilicia Dec 05 '21
There was a Maraga Massacre. It was against Armenians. Azerbaijanis always ignore it.
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u/dainomite ōtar axper Dec 04 '21
yes... humanism... that's why they returned the POWs... they definitely weren't used as leverage at all...