Population in the Middle East before and after 60 years ⌛- Armenia included in this map

[u/JDSThrive]

[u/Idontknowmuch]

Republic* of Armenia is NOT in the Middle East

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East

Flared accordingly

[u/[deleted]]

They amount of rando foreigners and armenians from the middleeast coming here to dictate what the Republic of armenia is or isn't is freaking concerning 

[u/Disastrous-Panda2401]

Surprised no one has brought up northern Iraqi Kurdistan being included on the map as well

[u/haveschka]

Jordan is crazy

[u/HighAxper → u/haveschka]

I think something like 80% of their population were originally refugees.

[u/zeMVK → u/HighAxper]

Yea, they get more and more Palestinian refugees ever since 1948.

[u/[deleted]]

To be fair there is more than meets the eye. Egypt has very fertile land along the Nile that can support population boom. Iraq has very fertile land amongst the Euphrates. Armenia is mostly rugged, mountainous & arid with only 15% of Arable farmland compared to Turkey’s 25%. If Armenians had successfully re-established a state in Cilicia, Armenians could have easily numbered 6 - 8 million+ in Cilicia alone.

[u/no_com_ment]

What's up with Oman?

[u/Borne2Run → u/no_com_ment]

They had 0.5M people in 1960, typo by the creator.

Population growth in Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijian is roughly the same for the map, compared to the exponential increases experienced by nations outside the Soviet bloc

[u/adammathias]

This is everything. ”Nature abhors a vacuum.“

The fix is simple. Anyway right now it doesn’t take much to grow faster than everybody else.

[u/HighAxper → u/adammathias]

Faster than everybody else is possible, but a big population growth is no longer achievable imho. People are going to have less and less babies in the future, it’s happening all over the world in developed and developing countries. If we get to 3,5 mil that will be a 17% population growth, which is insanely high in this day and age, to give you some perspective.

[u/adammathias → u/HighAxper]

Be an outlier.

[u/HighAxper → u/adammathias]

Being an outlier in this case would mean solving an issue which is affecting even the most capable countries with proper economists and social scientists working on solving it for decades now. Might as well compete with NASA on the race to Mars.

[u/adammathias → u/HighAxper]

“even”, or “especially”?

Armenia somehow beats “the most capable” countries on some other societal issues, like safety and homelessness.

Gaza and Niger somehow beat them on this one.

Logic says that “experts” and resources are not the deciding factor.

Have some courage, go your own path, use first principles.

[u/fizziks → u/HighAxper]

"No longer achievable" in what sense? AFAIK it's mostly due to contraceptives and cultural issues (feminism, materialism, lack of desire). Not because we can't.

[u/HighAxper → u/fizziks]

We literally can’t because the world will never go through another economic boom (which caused the baby boom) it did after the WWII.

A perosn in their early 20s could buy a house in the US and you got (for all intents and purposes) your own apartment for free in the Soviet Union. That’s why they had children like crazy, what’s the average first time home owner age these days?

Despite economic developments worldwide, we are all significantly poorer compared to previous generations in most parts of this world, including every first world country and its not gonna get any better, we are lucky if it stays the same. Children are less of a priority for anyone right now, because by the time you are 30 and start making good enough money, is the only time when you are still young enough to enjoy it properly.

[u/fizziks → u/HighAxper]

I don't really buy the economic argument. At worst people will live in multi family households until they can afford to move out, which at least here is more acceptable than western countries. It's more cultural/social than anything imo. People would rather spend money on personal enjoyment as you said.

[u/HighAxper → u/fizziks]

That’s the thing, people need money for both. Human existence is short, and people aren’t willing to sacrifice their best moments to have 4 kids, they balance it with two children or less.

[u/Whole-Passenger9961 → u/HighAxper]

How did may families in Artsakh have 5+ family members then? It just seems like you've been misinformed and you're spewing BS.

[u/HighAxper → u/Whole-Passenger9961]

Because the government of Artsakh heavily encouraged having children through financial and material assistance, like our neighbor in Martakert Kandaz who got a house from the government when they had their fifth, and a second even bigger house when they had their seventh, dude had 9 children last I checked because it kept bringing him money and he had no other things to do stuck in a rural area. The government of Artsakh was able to do this because property and construction was dirt cheap for them and they had a relatively small population+ money flow from Yerevan aimed at increasing quality of life and the population of Karabakh. Try that in Yerevan and see the country default in 2 years.

But hey, care to educate me on this so I don’t spew more “bullshit” despite less children being born in developed and developing countries being one of the most widely discussed and recognized trends in social sciences lmao.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

A failure in what way?

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

The reason the middle east has degraded so far is because of foreign powers interfering in the first place, mainly Europe and US. Turks aside of course.

Arabia used to be thriving and a pillar of Mathematicians in the past, until the modern borders were drawn and foreign interventions started. We can look at a recent example, the Iran-Iraq war was caused by US interference both in Iran by installing the Shah and in Iraq by Arming Saddam. (ofc it wasn't just the US).

Syria got a coup with Hafez Assad, I don't remember the exact details, but again, interference.

Lebanon used to be called Paris/Switzerland of the middle east, their currency used to match the US dollar for such a tiny country before Palestinians got dumped into Lebanon, along with other variables, ultimately led to the civil war and a whole elite regime taking over the government since then, turning it into a shadow of its former self. In the past there was a real fear of Lebanon becoming a powerhouse country in the region, it still does, so they crippled it.

Look at Yemen being starved by it's US allied neighbor.

overall, I can't blame them, it's not really their fault.

[u/IndependentEye123 → u/T-nash]

No, the Arabian peninsula and the Levant were mostly underdeveloped regions under the rule of the oppressive Ottomans.

The Gulf Arabs are now much, much richer and more influential than they ever were before the collapse of centuries of Ottoman rule.

The only injustice post-WW1 were the borders drawn for Armenia by the Bolsheviks and Kemalists.

[u/T-nash → u/IndependentEye123]

My time-line is before the ottoman era then jumping to past it as independent states.

[u/IndependentEye123 → u/T-nash]

You're going back more than six centuries.

Europe was not the reason for the decline of Arab civilization.

[u/T-nash → u/IndependentEye123]

I am, because if shows that under the same religion, there has been thriving moments and degrading moments, both under the same religion. It is an example of politics and inevitably corruption effecting people, not religion.

What was the decline of Arab civilization then?

[u/IndependentEye123 → u/T-nash]

The other guy you argued with is claiming that about Islam.

I'm simply saying that Europe had nothing to do with the decline of the Arab world.

[u/smalldick9000 → u/T-nash]

they were a "pillar of mathematics" during the abbasid calif and it only lasted like 100 years of thriving after that they started killing each other because other califs started like the fatimid. and most of the thinkers were farisi and not arabs. so arabs were never really smart.

[u/T-nash → u/smalldick9000]

So which is it? Arabs are dumb? or Muslims are dumb?

There's a lot of influential Arabs, just google it. Ask gpt if you have to...

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Russia interfered and influenced US elections, your point?

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Then I don't think you understand what interventions lead to.

Iran's Shah, a foreign intervention, caused an uprising and led to the current supreme leader

Saddam, a US guy, led Iraq to wage war with Iran, then eventually US invasion of it.

Afghanistan's Taliban, another foreign spawn

Lebanese civil war of 15 years

Syrian civil war of 15 years, a weapons testing ground for all foreign powers at this point.

Korea splitting into two

Do I need to list more? Yes, they absolutely can.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Well, many of them were vulnerable, for different reasons, the ottoman empire and ww1, 2 had rippling effects.

[u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood → u/[deleted]]

Totally agree. The lack of personal accountability for the problems these countries face…

Those Europeans made me massacre the Kurds, I swear! They drew a border and since I have no idea what a border is I have to kill my enemies!

Can recommend the book armies of sand.

[u/T-nash → u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood]

No one is taking away accountability, we are discussing events that led to demise. You can absolutely hold the corrupt officials accountable, but what destabilized these countries that brought these corrupt people? you can't now acknowledge that.

Take Armenia as an example, the soviet union not only did divide and conquer on purpose by placing Artsakh in az, giving away parts of Western Armenia to Turkey, and Nakhichevan to az, when it was collapsing they commenced with operation ring, made sure the conflict stayed for 30 years and gaslit Armenia during the whole time that they will let Turks invade us if we don't obey. While I accuse our past officials for being a plague on our nation and they have a large part in accountability, it doesn't change the fact that the soviet union then Russia are in fact the root of the cause, both in the late 80s and in 2020. We have our accountability (our officials), we certainly are not the trigger.

[u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood → u/T-nash]

I can acknowledge it as one of many forces in history, but to put only that under a microscope makes it sound like these places were perfect under the ottomans. And we need look no further than Armenia to know this is not true. Human rights were abysmal under the caliphate.

As for the Soviets, criticize away. They do not even have the veneer of liberal democracy and human rights. And Armenia’s path to democracy, It’s a hard, long path, I agree.

[u/South-Distribution54 → u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood]

Human rights were abysmal all over the world during the Ottoman Empire, Europe, and East Asia included.

[u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood → u/South-Distribution54]

During which time are we talking here? Because the concept of human rights originated in the west (Europe & USA). Enlightenment and all that.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

There are thriving Muslim countries.

I'm going to blaspheme here, and people will hate me for this because of my diaspora background, but I say this objectively, I am from the ME after all, and the average Muslim population in between Syria-Lebanon, I might even add Egypt, are noticeably more intelligent than the average Armenian in Armenia, even the ones who have dropped out of school.

Islam has nothing to do with it, it's because of corruption, that's where the roots of degradation is.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Which civilized world? the US where every few months there is a school shooting?

I merely lament that so many of my compatriots were forced through circumstances outside their control to be born and live in that shithole of a region. For what it's worth, I'm sorry for that.

Dude...stop, please... I don't need your pity, I have lived both in the ME and in Armenia, I have been to Europe and Americas, seriously, just stop, you have no idea what you're talking about, you're calling me brainwashed just because I was born in a particular region, so you're defaulting me to brainwashed, which ironically makes you the brainwashed one for generalizing the entire population of a set region you have never lived in. The entire root of your argument is hate on Islam, all the rest are coming from that point.

Any Armenian who doesn't see Islam as an existential threat to its statehood is blind, deaf and dumb. This is why it's so important to read. Read, read and read. Get to the very boned of things. Go to the very root of topics.

So you don't see Turks and Turkish identity as a threat, but blame Islam for it? tell me why the Armenians in the Middle east are living side by side with Arabs and thriving? the Armenian diaspora numbers in the ME have grown quite a bit since 1915, the only suffering they endure is from corruptions, which both Arabs and Armenians suffer alike.

What do you want me to read? propaganda articles that distort real causes with other things? there is no denying religion has been used to control a set of people to do things, but to blame religion for it is just absurd.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

I didn't put anything in your mouth, there is a clear question mark, making my sentence a question. Turkish identity will always be Turkish identity, Islam was used as a tool during the genocide, the ultimate goal was always Turkishness, as we witness what happened to the Muslim Kurds after.

If I am cherry picking, guide me the ones I haven't picked instead of a vague "go read". Instead i advise you to travel to the ME and speak to the Christians, Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians alike and see what they think of their Muslim population.

Smth like Hsitory of the Middle East/Neat East from time immemorial to our days with a special attention devoted to Armenian viewpoint. For whatever reason your whole viewpoint is either Islam or West.

I can't find it, link me.

My viewpoint is Islam because the subject is Islam, as accused by you, you can't expect me to talk about anything else. The west did interfere the region, many times as that, and I gave a few pointers on those leading to chaos in the ME, you didn't acknowledge them, only shifted blame.

I am an Armenian from the state of Armenia and I'm part of neither. I view things from an Armenian citizen viewpoint. A comprehensive one at that.

So coming back to my point, you have no idea how Middle eastern people are like because you never experienced them and no idea how Christians live with Muslims.

And again to reiterate: for me the statehood of Armenia is sarcostant. Compared to that - I'm sorry to say - I don't parricuallty care if some Armenians love living in an Islamic society.

How is this relevant to the subject? Armenia can be as sacred as we all care, you not caring about Armenians living in an Islamic society is also irrelevant, what matters here is your point, that the religion of Islam has doomed the Middle east, which is not true, it is corruption and interference, just like it was for the past regimes of Armenia, and that Armenians suffer from Muslims, which was not the initial subject, but i'll bite, is also not true as we can witness today.

Islam as a whole will not suffer an independent Armenia. I have 1400+ years of historical evidence to back up my claims so sorry to say, your anecdotal experience isn't very interesting to me. Judgement has been passed very long ago.

Are we going to medieval era wars? The world state then and today are very different. Are you going to acknowledge the Crusades here where Cilicia was a part of and butchered Muslims? The Muslim conquest is too far back, it is ironic that you don't acknowledge Christianity being forced on Armenians by our own king, isn't that for example bothering you as much as the Muslim conquest spreading Islam? Armenians have been present the Jerusalem for 700+ years and lived there normally throughout the exchanges between Muslims and Christians, up till the formation of Israel. 1921-2024 is also a historical evidence that you are distorting things. No judgement here, just racism and media narratives pushed to serve certain interests.

however, all this is shifting goalposts, which was not the original point, the original point was Islam degrading the middle east, which is simply not true, it always was interference and corruption dooming that region, as was and still is the case for Armenia as a country since independence.

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Just came across this video and thought of this discussion.

Feel free to watch it if you find the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bb8Z4j7h7A

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

Just watch it...

[u/T-nash → u/[deleted]]

The topic isn't even about Islam, it's not even sided, it's analytical.

The speaker is Roy Casagranda, a US born professor of political science

You can't possibly tell me you know the history better than Roy, even after your reading.

Nevertheless, you're just refusing to watch it because of the channel, the video however is objective.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You do realise majority of population in these middle eastern countries especially in south is predominantly south asians Like indians and pakisthanis. Jesus christ like if somehow indians and pakisthans are taught how to use condoms and had lesser population imo their standard of living would be so much better .

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Dawg been to qatar and stuf

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Saudi also

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Saudi also , kuwait also.

[u/h1ns_new → u/[deleted]]

Aha and why, Armenia is very much a West Asian nation.

[u/h1ns_new → u/[deleted]]

Armenia is closer to Lebanon, Iran etc than most of Turkey is (aside the Southeast which would be equally distant) and it‘s culturally the same as Southeastern Turkey infact most Armenians ARE from Southeastern Turkey and would still live there if not for the genocide.

Also Armenians are very much related to Assyrians and other Middle Eastern Christians.

[u/[deleted] → u/h1ns_new]

Dude do notbas some rando foreigner tell armenia what it is and what it isn't.  

[u/chikunshak → u/[deleted]]

Some of the highest standards of living in the world are in the Emirates and Israel.

[u/lmsoa941 → u/[deleted]]

You’re calling Middle East an Islamic Shithole, which is quite literally vile propaganda

[u/lmsoa941 → u/[deleted]]

go for it. It’s not like you’re comments are “hiding” what you want to say lmao.

It’s just that Middle Eastern Armenians have better opinions of the regions, since they also are subject to the same vile shit you are saying from the propaganda points clearly adhere and listen to. For a long time Armenians from the ME were called “Gharib” in Armenia, as a sort of slur because they lived in “Islamic countries which are Inferior” apparently. Coming from the Arabic word Gharib, to truly show the racism

Other than the “Islam is bad” you have no argument. You are illiterate when it comes to the history of the region, and it clearly shows.

This dick sucking for hegemonic powers and their incoherent and non-consistent ideals is sad.

[u/lmsoa941 → u/[deleted]]

”hegemonic powers vs islam”

Lmao, I never said this, don’t put words in my mouth

I mean this just shows your ignorance on the subject. I never said hegemonic powers vs Islam

Hegemonic powers were also against Vietnam, Haiti, Venezuela, Cuba, Lebanon, Congo.

I’m an Armenian from Armenia and my outlook

Then maybe you should read more? Idk what to say, but this “Our enemies are Islam” shit doesn’t really work when you literally have (or had) Christian extremism that exists as well.

It’s just that Far right sentiment in the right masks the extremists Christian movements.

While far right sentiment in Muslim countries are masked by extremists Islamists.

The current PM of Eritrea a Christian convert has committed crimes against humanity against the Tigray population.

Cameroons Christian president tortures and executes dissidents.

Lukashenko has quite literally squeezed the “religious tolerance” of the country, and has cracked down on Catholicism as well, with the exception of the Belarusian Orthodox Church. Not to mention the horrid LGBT and women’s rights laws that he took away.

Christian fundamentalist extremists groups also exist, the KKK, the “soldiers of God” here in Lebanon who killed 2 lesbians and attacked Syrians and Palestinians in the Armenian quarter of Burj Hammoud.

Again, you are just not educated enough to form an opinion other than “Islam bad”.

Don’t know about that

Of course you don’t. But the reality is, that people there have been subjected to this sense of superiority because “we are Christians, therefore Europeans, because we are superior, you Gharib were born in the ME, you live with Muslims, therefore you are inferior”

I mean, are we just completely forgetting how Iranian-Armenians survived for so long with barely any issues?

but xenophobia

Then it would have been the same word we use for non-Armenians, “Odar”. The word “Gharib” is explicitly used to compare us to the “illiterate Arab”

Listen

Read a book, lmao. You are too enfatuated with thinking that I am “protecting Islam” that you are getting angry for no reason.

Don’t pretend it’s good

I don’t. Like I don’t pretend Christianity is healthy. Nor Judaism.

They’re all the same. Equally. And all have extremists that are bad, equally.

Just because you haven’t talked to a Muslim before doesn’t mena you need to be afraid of them, they are human too :)

I see a lot of traits of a dhimmi

???????

Armenians from the Middle East yearn for the Islamic Yoke

?????????

What?

I mean what do you call this?

Would you like me to say “I understand Armenians in Armenia yearn for the Russian yoke, they failed to keep Artsakh and gave it to Russia, sold Armenia’s biggest ressources out for pennies on the dollar, Did not have the backbone to protect the borders themselves, let alone fight back so had Russians do it.

, but at least many Diasporan Armenians who helped liberate Artsakh, work their entire lives to buy a house, WITHOUT any help from any of the Armenian administration, while Armenians in Armenia are too lazy to work and would rather leave. Simple as that”

See how racist it was. I don’t believe what I wrote because I know better. So Be better. You have the internet and you clearly know how to read, even if you don’t understand what I write.

Here’s an easy book https://ia803409.us.archive.org/21/items/ManufacturingConsent_201408/Hegemony%20or%20Survival.pdf

[u/Lipa_neo]

I'm not sure that there is any need to bring here a map from an obvious turk who calls yerevan ""erivan"", draws random borders and god knows how else changes the data at will.

[u/EquivalentAromatic95]

Wholly shit Arabs really just out here fuckin

[u/[deleted]]

We aren't middleeastern why include us 

[u/h1ns_new → u/[deleted]]

Armenians are very similar to NW Iran, more so than to 80% of Turkey even aside the Southeast, by which standards is that not West Asian

[u/Dominos_Pizza_Rojava → u/[deleted]]

Who comprises the Republic of Armenia?

[u/Dominos_Pizza_Rojava → u/[deleted]]

And what is their ethnicity?

[u/Dominos_Pizza_Rojava → u/[deleted]]

There is no need to get so emotional. My point is that the Armenian people have a deep historical connection with Turks, Persians, and Arabs, who happen to reside in the Middle East.

Especially since you don't even seem to be Armenian

Last I checked, I was.