r/aerospace • u/Krometheous • 3d ago
Two offers: BOEING higher-paying PM role (Secret only) vs. NORTHROP GRUMMAN lower-paying engineering role (Secret → TS → SAP). LOJ clearance clock running out.
I'm an electrical engineer with ~6 years across defense and medical devices. I have two offers and I'm stuck. Would appreciate perspective, especially from anyone who's been through SAP vetting or made an engineering-to-PM move.
My situation
- Currently at a medical device company. Stable, no clearance required.
- Secret clearance, loss of jurisdiction since around December 2024. My understanding is the ~24-month reinstatement window closes around December 2026, so the clock matters.
- I have meaningful consumer debt — several accounts that went delinquent, a couple sold to collection agencies. I'm clearing the delinquent ones this week and the rest are on current payment plans. Nothing in litigation, no judgments, no bankruptcy.
Offer A — Program Management (Boeing)
- ~$23k more than Offer B, and a real raise over my current salary
- Requires Secret only. No TS, no SAP.
- Cost Account Management / IPT lead. This is a pivot out of hands-on engineering.
- My concern: I've never done PM work. Tracking cost and schedule across a team, being accountable for numbers other people generate. I worry about the pressure and about making costly mistakes while learning.
Offer B — Vehicle Engineer (Northrop Grumman)
- Lower salary, counter-offer pending
- Requires Secret to start, then TS within about a year, then SAP access
- Closer to my actual discipline, though the hiring manager flagged that I'd be learning CATIA, Creo, and NX — my background is electrical (PCB layout, signal integrity, power distribution, test fixtures), not mechanical CAD.
What I'm trying to figure out
- Guideline F realistically. Does resolved delinquent debt with documentation carry differently at Secret vs. TS vs. SAP? Is two years of clean history before SAP nomination enough mitigation, or does the original delinquency follow you regardless?
- If SAP access is denied. For those who've seen it: what actually happens? Does the company find you another role, or are you out? Is it standard to get this in writing before accepting?
- The PM pivot. If I do 1–2 years of cost account management, how hard is it to get back into hardware engineering? Does an active clearance offset the resume gap in technical work?
- Timeline realism. For someone with LOJ inside the window, how long does Secret reinstatement actually take right now? And Secret → TS after that?
- If I take the Northrop role would the SAP process start years after I start like 2028 if I get a Top Secret in 2027?
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u/MannyJay83 3d ago
Take the Boeing offer. More money and if you really want a role with TS you can find one later.
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u/Emotional_Eaglette 3d ago
Offer A. DEFINITELY. I've done the ipt lead role ( not at BOEING) and started with team lead experience but not ipt lead experience. and because u work with other ipt leads within your program, it operates like a leads team. U get support from them and from finance to help guide u on the financial reporting. The managing people part of it will fall into place when u realize its only about the output. compassion and empathy on the day to day interaction as well as, Are u able to produce at this rate to meet this deadline. And if they cant u have to switch out resources or add resources to get to completion.
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u/ObsidianFireKage 3d ago
As someone working at Northrop Grumman who has navigated and seen the Secret/TS & SAP pipeline, here is the realistic breakdown of how this actually might play out on the ground:
The Reality of TS and SAP Sponsorship: You need to adjust your expectations regarding how you get a TS. At Northrop, you typically only get sponsored for a TS upgrade when it is directly tied to a specific SAP requirement. Because the clearance level is coupled with the program requirement, the entire investigative process can take significantly longer to clear the hurdle. Secret will be easier to get, and your program may require SCI in the interim prior to TS.
How SAP Access Operates: It is vital to separate clearance eligibility from program access. Even after getting the clearance, SAP access is handled on a case-by-case basis by the specific program sponsor (not the hiring manager). Furthermore, your detailed background investigation results are tightly siloed. They are not made clear to your facility's ISSO or ISSM, who only deal with the final 'read-in' determination.
Timeline Realism: Going from Secret to TS (especially when tied to a SAP requirement) can easily take up to a year, if not longer. Because the SAP specific process can only conclude after that TS eligibility is fully adjudicated, your projection of the process stretching into 2027 or 2028 is highly realistic.
Guideline F Mitigation: Standard clearances rely heavily on SEAD 4 mitigating factors, such as 2 years of proven, documented financial resolution. However, because SAP access is program-dependent, individual program sponsors hold ultimate discretion. A program with a low risk tolerance may still hesitate on recent delinquencies, regardless of what the base clearance adjudication says.
If Access is Denied: Employment outcomes depend entirely on whether your specific role strictly requires that program access. While the company tries to utilize cleared talent elsewhere, guaranteed reassignment is rarely put in writing before onboarding. It depends entirely on whether there is alternative overhead budget or non-SAP contract openings available at that exact moment. Usually, if you can get cleared for Secret, it's expected that you would get cleared for TS, though stranger things have happened. You also will be required to pass a drug screening for your secret clearance. TS, may be the same but that isn't a real priority right now.
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u/Krometheous 3d ago
I think i can clear my debt by November but since its going to be within the 2 year idk. Plus the northrop role is level 2 and they will do a counter offer tuesday 9/8 (first 109k then 118k) but they cant match the boeing level 4 PM salary 140k
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u/ObsidianFireKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
Offer A may be the best then for you. If anything, it will allow you to use that to have higher salaries for future roles if you decide to leave.
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u/Krometheous 3d ago
But i guess the question is can I last more than 18 months to make use of that salary to move to other roles? Or will it burn me out.
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u/FlyingCats17 2d ago
Do you like managing projects and have any experience doing that at a smaller scale? PM roles can be great and I've been back and forth between Engineering and PM my whole career. At the same time, they are not for everyone.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
I feel that I am not confident in a lab setting or design since I've never been an electrical design engineer. I feel better translating technical info from the technical SME and R&D to other colleagues rather than being the one testing, troubleshooting. but maybe design could be laid back and helpful but idk.
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u/FlyingCats17 2d ago
Sounds like you are in for something new either way. Design is going to be more on your own whereas the IPT role will require you to lead others and drive performance. Have you ever been a team lead?
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
not really officially. at lockheed I was a technical liason for an IPT for my subsystem for a program as an EE level 2. Medtronic I was one of the 3 electrical engineers for new product innovation. Raytheon no. Boeing no. Abbott I'm the only electrical engineer in the manufacturing department.
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u/TastyComputer 3d ago
I have had couple of my engineers move on to PM roles and come back. The intense work schedule drove them away from what seemed like a lucrative career.
Additionally, for the OP, if you are not confident in your TS eligibility, I would not pursue it. From my understanding being in management, once someone is denied their TS, the company will have to get written permission every time they want to put the denied candidate on a program, which creates some hurdles.
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u/Krometheous 3d ago
Sorry the top secret SAP role is the northrop vehicle engineering role and the secret clearance role is the boeing PM job.
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u/TastyComputer 3d ago
Salary and position aside, I have had a lot of friends taken positions at NG and have nothing but great things to say. While I have a lot of employees coming from Boeing that’s on the opposite end.
FWIW.
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u/Krometheous 3d ago
What did they say about boeing? And which roles were they in? I did want to take the northrop but the pay is a lateral move and im worried about the sap and top secret part.
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u/TastyComputer 2d ago
Take it with a grain of salt, but here are some comments I can recall:
Work life balance is non-existent.
Management is a mess, nobody seems to be on the same page about anything.
Environment is toxic because of internal conflicts.Very common things I have heard over the years from different employees. However, please know these sentiments are common coming from different employees across a wide range of companies.
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u/FlyingCats17 2d ago
At Boeing, we have employees that say the same about NG including those who left Boeing for NG and came back. Both companies are too large to have a singular identity. You need to get some perspective about the actual area you are working.
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u/squeakinator 2d ago
Want to work with no phone and no windows all day?
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
why? which one is that?
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u/WrongManon 2d ago
I’d bet it’s the NG offer. The spaces where you can do work that requires the clearance generally don’t allow any personal electronics and lack windows. Usually check them at a door or just leave them in your car
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
I see. So would that be a big issue so far as needing to get a phone call from an important contact? like family or doctor etc?
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u/AscendantJustice 2d ago
You'll have access to a land line (maybe even a personal desk phone if your primary working location is in a SCIF) and you'll likely be able to step outside of the SCIF and check messages for a few minutes.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
Gotcha. Hmm... im not sure now. Im obviously not going to be on my phone all day etc but not having windows etc im not sure what to think or do. I have till Tuesday to decide
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u/AscendantJustice 2d ago
It all depends on the nature of the work. You could only have to go into the SCIF sporadically but SAP programs often don't have a lot of unclassified work as far as I know. It's something to ask the hiring manager or recruiter. It's not all bad though. I worked in an office that was up to Secret so we had no windows and no cell phones and you just get used to it. A SCIF is a different beast though.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
Whats the scif like? Wait so even secret clearance cant have windows?
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u/AscendantJustice 2d ago
A SCIF is just a room that's held to higher classification standards than rooms that are approved to hold Secret or Confidential information. Any room where classified information (confidential and above) is being stored or discussed, it either can't have windows or existing windows have to be covered. Any time you're discussing or working with classified information you have to leave all electronic devices (phones, smart watches, Bluetooth devices, car key fobs) outside of the room. Working with classified information is no joke and because of that our lives are made slightly more inconvenient.
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u/AscendantJustice 2d ago
I also would like to point out that just because you have a clearance doesn't mean you'll be working full time in a secure space without windows or electronic devices. From what I understand you mostly find those at government facilities. My first job was on a navy base so that's where my experience in that comes from. But my current job is at a contractor and my desk is in a normal office space next to a big window. I only go into our secure space to work on aspects of my programs that are classified. That's why it's important to ask the hiring manager or recruiter what the expectation is as far as where you'll be working. You may not have to go into a secure space except for meetings or to do the occasional task. SAP stuff is different and I don't have that much experience with that.
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Bro how you dont know this. TS work often happening in SCIF, it is a silo room.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
Ive never worked in TS
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Okay, so TS sound good on paper but it came with some cons. Unless you are someone who willing to work in closed area, most of your life i am not recommend. It also came with travel restrictions, so some countries you have to submit a request to travel. Also the investigation is very invasive, they will interview everyone you listed, more invasive than a secret clearance. It is something to think about especially you have a life style.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
Everyone that I listed like who?
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Family, friends, someone who know you for at least 5 years. You will be investigate by an investigator . Foreign influencer is the biggest risk factor.
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u/squeakinator 2d ago
literally no cleared area will allow any electronics that transmit or receive. Generally is 100% incorrect.
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u/lonestar-newbie 2d ago
Wonder why nobody asked this.
Curious How come you are in positions making six digits and has several accounts delinquent with collection agencies.
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u/damandamythdalgnd 2d ago
AI slop…. Telltale right here “so the clock matters.” (Claude) People to the point they can’t even ask a question on Reddit without it being generated by AI.
Given you’re incapable of doing the above…go the individual contributor role. Stay away from the PM.
the boeing Reddit page as identified this as trash with 0 upvotes.
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u/itchyburnybutthole 2d ago
1) Ask the security clearance sub. I can’t imagine this being a blocker if you’re otherwise clean. Especially if you show you have it under control and are showing improvement.
2+) I wouldn’t stress too much about clearance timing or clearance falling through. There are plenty of spots everywhere to shift people around. And I wouldn’t stress about the pivot to CAM work….the vast majority of CAMs are former engineers with minimal finance/business training and they’re bad at the financial mgmt. Many CAMs are thrust into CAM work involuntarily. It does lead to higher pay, though. Maybe I’m biased, but unless you’re very introverted and very against people management, I think the CAM work is interesting and not that bad if you enjoy business decisions.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
I would be very new to making business decisions so its a new frontier for me. And idk if the secret clearance would be an issue but I would be worried about top secret and sap since even if I set up a payment plan or settle the debt they are too fresh to mitigate? idk
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u/internetaddictplshlp 2d ago
As an engineer who has had CAM/IPT work forced on me, I'm not sure how long I could last if that was my full time job. Maybe that kind of work vibes with you and if so go for it.
Q's: 1: They can have different areas of concern, a former debt probably won't matter. 2. They'll probably keep you in the same or similar role but you should confirm. 3. You will be going down the path of management/SE. If you want to stay on the technical side then you should go NG. 4/5 No idea, it depends on a lot of factors
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
what do you mean by 4/5? Why do you hate IPT/CAM as a full time job? I don't feel really comfortable in design or troubleshooting anymore due to lack of having a strong foundation since graduating and being silo'd into more EE admin roles. So I thought perhaps system engineering/PM might be better? but idk. and idk which job to take based on culture and compensation.
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Boeing is mile better. TS aint worth shit, it is not what it used to be. You need TS SCI with poly to make marketable.
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u/mike7seven 2d ago
I’ve worked at Boeing as a technical Program Manager. It’s a grind house. You get put in place to absorb the project failures. They pay well for it and it has benefits, but your fears are correct if you’ve never done PM work or have a PMP.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
I see. What did you start out as before being a project manager? I was very transparent and gave insight on the STAR questions for the interview but im not sure how it actually will be and if I can adapt. They said they'd set me up in financial courses and with a senior project manager.
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u/ShutDownSoul 2d ago
If you enjoy lying and screwing people, take the PM job. You'll make more money over the course of your career. Down side is your soul will be irreparably torn.
I've known many people that wanted to get back to an engineering role after IPT/PM.
Getting your Secret reactivated should be straight forward. Your debt and allowing accounts to go to collections is not a good signal to investigators for the advanced clearances; however, being 100% truthful may be a mitigating factor.
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u/Krometheous 2d ago
How do you mean lying and screwing people? Do you have an example?
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u/ShutDownSoul 2d ago
PM job it to provide a plausible story for your and your teams fuckups to the next higher level of management, and at the same time to lie to your team that there is plenty of funding, but we just need to get past this milestone. Once the milestone hits, you layoff people. If you told them up front, they'd leave and you wouldn't make the milestone.
You: It takes $10 dollars to do this job.
MGT: Great. Here's $7.
You: I already spent the $7 and I need 2$ more.
MGT: Why do you need $2 more.
You: I told you at the start I needed $10
MGT: That's not a valid reason
You: The widget from the company you directed you to doesn't meet the interface
MGT: OK, here's $1
You: I'm cleaning my rifle tonight.•
u/Krometheous 2d ago
I guess then... should I stay where im at and lose my clearance and deal with the toxicity and dysfunction? or still take the PM and can I survive for the 12 to 18 months to do a transfer?
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u/ShutDownSoul 2d ago
I've given you my perspective, what's best for you is something you have to decide.
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u/Oliver_clothsoff1983 3d ago
1) I think your security clearance questions would be better asked in the security clearance sub (a lot of experts in that sub) in general tho,.. it sounds like you are worried over nothing, clearance isnt a credit score, those "reportable events" are just that,.. if you are currently going through debt issues, have open cases etc you are a risk but resolved issues are nothing to worry about. 2) it sounds like you already know your answer of what offer to take,... if the PM role was what you wanted you wouldn't need to justify it with higher pay and already looking to move back to hardware for the next role.