Lestat’s narrative

[u/NightOwlLurking]

I was thinking about the Lestat-Armand scene on the balcony where we had 2 versions: Armand’s version (where Lestat says that he loves him back) and Lestat’s version (“There is not enough room in this box for your desperation”) and was wondering if in season 4 we will get an answer which was real.
And then I realized that when we know for sure that Lestat lied (for example when he told Daniel that Gabriella died), we never seen the scene, we just hear Lestat’s narrative. While they show the actual scene in the carriage with a very happy and sane Gabriella (which of course is never discussed with Daniel).
Can this be on purpose? Like if we get to see the actual scene, we know it’s real (because Lestat would be a more reliable narrator than Louis), while if it’s just Lestat’s talking about it, it could be a lie?

Another example is Enkil. Marius says that Enkil was burned in the sun, but we see his skull smashed and leg broken.

Could that be on purpose? Do they go with the direction that Lestat is a more reliable narrator than Louis and Armand? Do we have any scene where we know it’s not real, yet we get to see it? Lestat seems to be very sure that the way he remembers it is the truth. It could be just his self-centered way, or it could be on purpose.

I know that in the interviews Sam and Jacob talk often about the fact that in first 2 seasons we get one point of view, and now things are different cause we get Lestat’s point of view. They never say that Lestat is the reality. But I wonder if they don’t do it on purpose that some scenes we get to see how things happened, while in others we just hear Lestat’s narrative (like for example Nicki’s actual death). Could this be on purpose? Or is it just because of budget restrictions? What do you think?

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[u/AmbassadorSad1157]

Asaad says during an interview that Lestat's version is arguably more truthful.

[u/pwetty_brown_eyes → u/AmbassadorSad1157]

It's probably somewhere in the middle

[u/pwetty_brown_eyes]

I definitely think Lestat is being bitter about Armand and can't confess that he does actually care about him lol

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/pwetty_brown_eyes]

Oh, he definitely has some problems confessing his love in general and admitting that he doesn’t have the control or how desperately in love he was.
He downplayed how much he loves Gabriella, cause he told Louis in the bar that “I conduct the chaos. She’s one of the many chainsaws i juggle” to minimize her role and how much he cares. And he said that Nicki was the first love, not a great love, while wearing his ring 100 years later, having his music box and going in the grave for 100 years after he died. And still breaking down when remembering him.
So I totally see him minimizing the feelings he had for Armand as well.
It’s not necessarily lying, I think he doesn’t even want to admit to himself how much he loved them. So he’s lying to himself that he’s in control, that it wasn’t such a great loss. In one way it’s also for self preservation. Because if he admits how much he loved them and how much he was hurt and his trauma, he might need to get buried for 100 more years…or jump in the fire like Magnus.

[u/DumbTeen9 → u/[deleted]]

he is a romantic and he loves and believes in and worships beauty - the ugliness of his past and how people have used & abused him simply irritates him and colors the world hideously

I love this so much, you the real lestst understander

[u/pwetty_brown_eyes → u/[deleted]]

How does Louis "use" Lestat? Claudia????

I don't get it, so many people seem to view Lestat as this eternal victim and I've never understood it

[u/pwetty_brown_eyes → u/[deleted]]

This is kind of wild to me

• Lestat has more social power, Louis would have needed help with anything money related

• I think the Claudia thing is more complicated, but I can kind of understand that

• Louis financially back up Lestat is a bad thing now?

"Using him to learn about vampire powers" is the strangest thing I've ever heard. I suppose Louis was supposed to just die in the sun because he doesn't understand what's happening? The absolute bare minimum is to teach your fledglings about the life of a vampire and protect them 😭😭

Also, if Louis is bad for abandoning Lestat, doesn't that mean Lestat is using Louis as a therapist too? Hes expecting Louis to protect his abandoment issues

It's almost like they are partners, and couples are supposed to help eachother out. As a couple, you "use" eachother

[u/lethalglam → u/pwetty_brown_eyes]

I’m sorry but these are simply facts, not trying to start sumthn.

Lestat was happy to share, the money means nothing to him (it’s not his itch) and he loves Claudia, too. He didn’t act without submission and he was obviously complicit. He even allows them to kill him, believing they would be better off without him if he cannot make them (especially Louis) love him.

When Louis wasn’t making Lestat happy he expected Lestat to amuse himself, which he did, which was then not viewed as a good or loyal thing. Also he was judged for his nature (vampires need human blood to thrive) but morally Louis believes it’s wrong.

I’m not arguing morality or anything like that.

I don’t think this story has anything to do with the social sensibilities of today

[u/Mmkrw → u/[deleted]]

Nobody would sell a property like this to Louis, it was during Jim Crow. How is it using someone if you pay it back?

Lestat doesn't want Louis to be involved in human affairs... when he specifically chose the city that Louis had family and business in. Lestat wanted to participate in human society, he liked going to opera, had human acquaintances, social life. He didn't want to become a hermit, and he loved New Orleans. What did he expect from Louis, to stay at home and never go out?

Louis was suicidally depressed, he didn't become mentally ill to "use" Lestat, wtf.

Louis didn't "use" Lestat as a source of vampire knowledge... what even is this. It was Lestat's idea to turn Louis, how wouldn't it be his responsibility as his maker? What does Magnus have to do with this? And besides, Lestat deliberately hid information about vampires from Louis and Claudia, which had disastrous consequences.

And Louis begged Lestat for Claudia, not to use him, but to build a family with him.

This post is such extremely in bad faith it's astounding. Do you see all relationships as transactional as you describe?

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/pwetty_brown_eyes]

It’s not necessarily that Louis uses him, but it’s a bad and toxic relationship. They both have different needs and they just trigger each other.

The worst part for me is the fact that Louis seems to think he is better than anyone else just because he doesn’t like killing people (while we know now that Lestat has had a hard time with that too) and he just has this feeling of moral superiority and that he can do no wrong. And he blames Lestat for everything, even when he also made lots of mistakes.

For example he blames Lestat for making him when he agreed to it (Lestat on the opposite had no choice and still doesn’t blame Magnus).
2. He blames Lestat for making Claudia even though he begged him to turn her (in the books Lestat did it by himself, but still Louis fed on Claudia and she would have died had Lestat not turn her).
3. He blames Lestat for dropping him, when Lestat said “stay down, cheri! I am trying to retrain myself. Stop! I don’t want to fight like this”. But he thought he was more powerful and he threatened to kill Lestat (“i’m gonna chop your head off and i’m gonna feed it to the lions and i’m gonna laughhhh” 🙄). When it turned out that indeed Lestat was restraining himself and that he could have easily out powered Louis, oh noooo, Lestat is a monster. I am not saying Lestat was not wrong, but Louis had a big blame and he would have done the same things to Lestat (or worse) if he had the chance/power. But since he wasn’t strong enough, he blames Lestat for everything and takes no blame. He would have killed Lestat then and there if he had the power. So how is just Lestat to blame? Lestat said he was sorry, but Louis never did. He never acknowledged that he was also to blame and that he practically challenged Lestat.
4. He tries to kill Lestat and is the one that actually cuts his throat. Yes, he didn’t burn him, but he wasn’t sure that Lestat would be alive after drinking blood from the dead and having his throat cut. If in the drop, Lestat knew it would not kill Louis, Louis actually tried to kill Lestat.
5. He blamed Lestat for Claudia’s death even if it was his fault too. Claudia was mainly convicted for killing Lestat (which he helped), making Madeline (which he made) and being too young (which Lestat told him it’s against the laws and he didn’t care and still push him to turn her). Yes Lestat was to blame for appearing in the trial, but I don’t think he wanted Claudia dead (he just wanted her scared), and Louis also has part of the blame.

After all this, Louis somehow still thinks he’s better than Lestat, that Lestat is a monster and he’s somehow superior to any other vampire.

None of them is innocent, they have both wronged each other and I think they just need different things in a relationship (Lestat needs somebody that would make him feel safe and chosen and worthy of love, somebody that he know is not gonna leave him, while Louis needs somebody that accepts his colder nature and isn’t needy…somebody like Lemuel).

I think they love each other, but they need different things and their love is toxic.

And Claudia…Claudia admitted that she used Louis and Lestat for her own gains and that she chose Louis because she knew he would leave with her, while Lestat would never chose her over Louis. She wanted to leave, so she fabricated a story about the train to convince Louis that Lestat was evil. She had her own reasons, but she used both Louis and Lestat for her own agenda.

[u/babealien51 → u/[deleted]]

Lestat doesn’t lie? lol. lmao even.

[u/theravennest → u/babealien51]

The way Lestat outright lies multiple times this season. lmao

Like, remember when he looked dead into the camera and said "facts are irrelevant, feels are everything" and when he point blank said he was going to make a bunch of shit up for the Failures album since he literally wasn't there for any scene taking place without him in it???? So everything told to us from those scenes is completely suspect even outside of the fact that this is Lestat editorializing.

[u/justwantedbagels → u/[deleted]]

Saying Armand used Lestat is hilarious when the show made it abundantly clear via Lestat’s own recollection in TVL that the exact opposite happened. Lestat used Armand for his body while spurning his feelings and any regard for him as person and used him for what he could teach him about vampire powers since Magnus taught him nothing, and then he ditched him. This is exactly what Armand said that he did as well. Quibbles about when exactly they fucked in a theater box and whether or not Lestat ever said he loved him back are meaningless, because Armand was never trying to claim in his version of the story that Lestat actually loved him back. The whole point of Armand’s story was that Lestat used him and left him, and Lestat corroborated exactly that in his own version.

[u/theravennest → u/justwantedbagels]

The way 98% of Armand's story from S2 was corroborated in some way by Lestat or Lestat's subconscious (his muses) in TVL even down to Armand saying Lestat played Harlequin on stage after he became a vampire. (Note how when Lestat is recalling his life at the long table in the finale, we literally SEE him playing Harlequin.)

[u/justwantedbagels → u/theravennest]

Yep. But who cares about those facts when feels are everything and people feel like Armand is always nothing but a liar and Lestat is always innocent and truthful.

[u/justwantedbagels → u/[deleted]]

I don’t need permission to love Armand, thanks, and nothing about this indicates any inaccuracy in the story Armand told in his flashback. Armand being gracious in his apology, whether it’s sincere or not, by saying that he “artlessly assumed companionship” (because of his “childhood conflict” of being a sex slave and CSA survivor who was groomed and abused by his Maker and never learned any kind of healthy attachment) doesn’t change the fact that in his own narration Lestat depicts Armand giving him love and his body and Lestat using him for it while rejecting him as a person and then leaving him, which is what Armand said that he did when he told his side of their past in the s2 flashback.

[u/lethalglam → u/justwantedbagels]

Permission? That was never uttered. We clearly sympathize with different characters.

I simply state I believe it’s fine to be whatever you want to be and love whomever you want to love.

Lestat also has his own SA history and knows nothing of healthy or secure attachment. You’re blaming one person for something and excusing behaviors in another for similar reasons.

[u/justwantedbagels → u/lethalglam]

“It’s ok to like Armand” is you attempting to give me permission to love Armand, be serious.

And if you reread what I actually wrote, you might see that I’m not blaming Lestat for anything. I’m simply stating as a fact what he did, as told by his own narration in TVL, which directly refutes your claim that Armand used him rather than the other way around, and the assertion that Armand lied about what happened between in them in Paris, which has been a common fanon assumption for years now, when Lestat in TVL ended up corroborating everything that Armand said except for when exactly they fucked in the theater box and whether or not Lestat ever gave him a (very insincere sounding in Armand’s own recollection) “I love you” back.

[u/justwantedbagels → u/[deleted]]

Giving the benefit of the doubt that you’re actually serious, you should know that what you consider a “blanket pleasantry” comes off as snarky condescension and isn’t received as a pleasantry.

[u/justwantedbagels → u/[deleted]]

And yeah you’re right, Lestat is totally the victim of those users Louis and Claudia!

https://giphy.com/gifs/Sx3RuMajEa1LkVeY85

[u/carpocapsae → u/[deleted]]

Claudia is Lestat's child, you really have to reach to argue that she is capable of using him in any way that doesn't still sit in the context of a relationship where he holds most of the power.

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/[deleted]]

Oh, I totally agree. I love Lestat and have been mesmerized by him since I read TVL in high school, and have completely understood and supported and defended him since. I love his bratty imperfect personality. I think there is good (and trauma) behind every choice he makes. He is my favorite character ever and will forever defend him.
And I agree that most of the characters use him and don’t love him the way he needs to be loved (Louis definitely being on that list too).

I didn’t mean that Lestat would lie for the sake of lying. He could be withholding something in order to protect (himself or others) or because he doesn’t want to admit his trauma - the way he lied about Gabriella being dead. Or out of fear (fear of being abandoned, fear of being judged) which is also a trauma response.
Or in some cases it could be that be doesn’t remember things perfectly. It’s been more than 100 years so memory can play tricks. Although he seems to think that his memory is to be trusted and so far it seems to be true.
Or he could be just repeating what others told him (the way that Louis added the train scene because Claudia lied about it and he believed her).

So I am just wondering if the fact that we didn’t get to see some scenes might mean something. If the writers made those decisions for a reason, why some scenes we get to see and others we don’t.
I don’t think we ever got to see a scene from Lestat’s perspective that proved to be untrue, did we? I know some people were saying that seasons 1-2 we got Louis’s perspective, now we get Lestat’s, but that everyone is an unreliable narrator. But I don’t think Lestat is unreliable.
At least not in terms of the scenes we saw. Those seem to be the actual truth. While what he narrates can be lies of omission, especially when he’s talking with Daniel (he has reasons not to trust Daniel).

[u/ImmediateArmy3820]

Two things can be right. Enkil and Akasha were both left out in the sun and basically got a real good tan. The young fledglings died because of it. Enkil was apparently attacked at a different time where his leg was broken and the back of his head is crushed.

Lestat loves Armand mostly because of their shared history. He’s part of Lestat’s past. That does mean something to him. But no, Lestat isn’t lying about rebuffing Armand.

I will say the show has given them a much more…sexual(v.), but not more intimate(n.) past. They have Serious history in the book. Crazy even. Smh. Basically Armand kicks Lestat when he’s at one of his lowest points. Drop kicks.

I can’t stand that gremlin. So I might be a tad biased. But it did say book spoilers allowed. In the books I’ve read, there is absolutely no romantic feelings for Armand. Though Armand tried to seduce him often. Like too often. Daniel is the right one to soften him up for his real family.

Anne Rice’ point is that, except where Louis was deceived and misremembered, that was his truth.
Now we are hearing Lestat’s truth (more or less). Perhaps Lestat (show) didn’t out his mom because it’s not what she’d want. She’s a roaming hermit. She is not really interested in getting to know people. She’s there because Lestat asked her to show. But as it is in real life everyone can be in the same room but have very different points of view.

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/ImmediateArmy3820]

But in the series, Marius said that Enkil died in the sun and he didn’t say anything about Akasha being in the sun too. Which is different from the books. And why would the oldest most powerful vampire be killed by the sun, but Armand can walk in the sun without any problem?
And if Enkil died then, it makes no sense that he was attacked at a later time. Why attack a dead vampire? If he didn’t die then, Marius lied.

I think that scene was deliberately withholding information. Either Marius was lying (or not saying the whole truth), or Lestat was. And that it will be revisited in Season 4.

In the Armand scene, we see the same moment from 2 points of view. So either Lestat said love you to Armand or he was tired of his “desperation”. Both cannot be true at the same time if we talk about this particular moment. True that Lestat could have told Armand that he loved him another time, and Armand maybe misremembered and said it happened then? But one of them had to be wrong. My bet is on Armand lying in this case.

I am wondering if they have a reason why some scenes we actually see and others we just have Lestat’s narrative. And if we have a scene from Lestat’s point of view that we know for sure is a lie/or him misremembering.

[u/DemVamps → u/NightOwlLurking]

The two things that are true that I was referring to are: Lestat loves Armand but NOT romantically. So yes he loves him but yes Armand exacerbates him. Like chill dude: (Armand has no chill mode).

Enkil is killed by the original vampire, his wife. Marius by the way is not the oldest.

In the book, Enkil becomes jealous of Lestat and Akasha protects him. When she is awoken by Lestat, again, she kills her hubby. In the show Marius implies that he moves Akasha first and left Enkil in the sun, but apparently he brought him in too. I would imagine not too long after her. He never says he is dead. But if he wakes up, I’m sure she’ll kill him again.

So the other two things are, they were left in the sun and survived (they’re supposed to be around 4K thousand yrs old). They both got tans. Since they don’t talk much Marius only knows so much.

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/DemVamps]

I was referring to Enkil being the oldest vampire (not Marius) that it makes no sense that he would be hurt by the sun, while Armand and Daniel aren’t.
Marius said “his name WAS Enkil.” And he talks only about taking care about Akasha. He implies that Enkil was dead and they need to take care of Akasha else they all die too. Cause it’s only her left.
And with his head smashed and the leg broken, it seems that something/somebody already attacked Enkil. So probably Akasha killed him before Lestat came and Marius is lying (or he doesn’t know what happened).

All I am saying is that Marius’ version doesn’t make sense. Enkil would not die for being in the sun a short while. And he would not have his skull smashed and leg broken from the sun. So something else happened that Marius didn’t tell Lestat. Or he doesn’t know (maybe he thought he was drunk but Akasha messed with his memory).

Or do you think Enkil might still be alive? I think he looked pretty dead to me.

[u/DemVamps → u/NightOwlLurking]

Enkil was never the most powerful vampire. The real story comes out from the twins. There’s a lot of history that got messed up. No one’s fault as those who could speak up are either comatose, not around, or unable to talk about it.

[u/red-mushr00m]

I think the truth between Lestat and Armand is somewhere in the middle, but closer to Lestat's. Assad said Lestat's version is closer to the truth. Anne Rice repeatedly said Lestat is the most reliable of the narrators.

I doubt we will ever know for sure what the real interaction was.

[u/FearlessSquirrel9522]

We also have a double narrative this season. Lestat tells Daniel things but he’s also recorded his own account of events. In my mind when what we’re seeing diverges from what he tells Daniel, it’s his recording of the Failures.

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/FearlessSquirrel9522]

True, we can assume he is being honest in the recording of the failures.
I totally understand why he would be withholding information from Daniel. Especially since the end of episode 6. Cannot blame him.

[u/FearlessSquirrel9522 → u/NightOwlLurking]

Yes as well as according to Lestat, Daniel wrote a whole book of lies about him.

[u/Visible-Steak-7492 → u/FearlessSquirrel9522]

"a whole book of lies", and yet for some reason most of its contents remain uncontested (when not outright confirmed) by the man himself, including the parts people had preemptively decided were 100% untrue. lmao

[u/jadem219]

I think the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Our Reality is shaped by each of our experiences and inherent traits. No one perspective in the show is the absolute true "reality".

[u/DumbTeen9]

I live love live kedmand but sometimes even I have to stop being biased lol

When it comes to Lesmand he loves Armand because he sees him, they see eachother even if understanding (mostly in armand's part) is a little lacking at times, and he hates him because in tvl he's is basically this pretty twink who shows up when he's at his worse to drop kick him lower to the point where everytime his life goes to shit he thinks of armand- who he practically shived off like a limpet- like a pavlov dog

There's a ton of ruminating about armand to the point where a huge portion of the book is dedicated to "The Children of Darkness" and "The Vampire Armand", but outwardly Lestat is either trying to get him off his ass or gentleparenting him (off his ass), Lestat's entire thing is that he falls through love with everything isn't it?

Also he has plenty of reason to hate him, I'll spare the details till you read the book but he has plenty yet... doesn't "cherub child, good to embrace, good to love", "I wanted to tell him that it was a lie I had spoken when I said I did not love him because I did, I did"

Soooyeah it probably went that way even if lestat was giggling and blushing in the inside. I once joked in a comment section that Armand is basically the only thing Lestat loved or wanted yet held himself back from taking

[u/NightOwlLurking → u/DumbTeen9]

Oh yes, i read the book up until Pandora a while ago (Pandora was an audiobook, I didn’t find it on paper and I had to stop cause I don’t like audiobooks). And now rereading them again (I am at the end of TVL and managed to find all the books this time).
And I remembered Lestat loving Armand (and David, and Gretchen, and Dora and Akasha). He’s a very loving person. 😅😅

[u/Ri-Ri1216]

I agree that Armand is a liar not Lestat.

But what is "THE " truth? If you mean reality what really happened, how are we to know. The whole series is being remembered by various narrators who are all more or less unreliable.

If you want to go back to the books you might find the most reliable narrative. But as far as the series goes I think there will always be doubts about if something did or didn't happen. I know it's confusing but the best we can do is look for little clues like hair length, paintings, scars, more than one POV in the same episode. Stuff like that.

Everyone is narcissistic and out for themselves. They have a reason to believe what they're telling each other. It's not malicious necessarily but just the frailties of life even when they're no longer human but immortals.

Imagine being a God and trying to tell the story of your life. How would you remember it? Just IMO.

[u/Purple-Cat-2073]

I don't believe any of them 100%.

[u/Ecstatic_Study_8895]

Yeah, it's definitely on purpose I think. Like, I don't think we're getting another version that tells us what we're shown from Lestat's perspective isn't real.

[u/WildBlueMoon]

Every first person narrative is subjective.  

The book makes the Armand & Lestat relationship a bit more complicated but Lestat rejects Armand's overtures repeatedly - and Armand punishes Lestat for that rejection repeatedly

I agree that the story given by Marius about Enkil's death does not align with what we see. I'm very curious to see what they do with that in QOTD!