How negotiations actually work...

[u/Veshaad]

To the inevitable response from MAGA that Obama gave 'pallets' of cash...he released frozen Iranian assets. Meanwhile the current Iran conflict has directly cost $38 billion militarily and a currently projected $87 billion in extra gas and diesel expenses. Not to mention that the strategic oil reserves have been depleted to the point that experts warn that the caverns they're stored in could collapse.

[u/Apple-Dust]

*Calls the media out for lying*

*Refers to an air campaign as an "invasion" and a Russian seizure of territory as "giving it them"*

[u/United-Salamander-89 → u/Apple-Dust]

Not doing anything about it is definitely letting them have it buddy. Ignored all the warnings that it was about to happen, then did nothing. Also funny how for obama it was an "air campaign" back then but it's "trumps war on Iran" today. What tf is the difference between the two lmao. I would say the biggest difference is leaving the place to rot and turn into the world's worst warring slave state. Just stop with all this bro. You don't have to meat ride obama just because you hate trump. I imagine you were like 4 when obama was president though 

[u/Apple-Dust → u/United-Salamander-89]

Not doing anything about it is definitely letting them have it buddy.

No, telling them they can have it would be letting them have it, and Obama did do something about it by applying sanctions (another inaccurate claim by you). That along with aid to Ukraine is all any president did do or would do, because none of them are going to get into direct conflict with a nuclear-armed adversary over a country they were not allied with.

Also funny how for obama it was an "air campaign" back then but it's "trumps war on Iran" today

That's because you're strawmanning and conflating "war" with "invasion". Both were air campaigns, and both were wars. What neither one was (or at least is yet) is an invasion, because invasion definitionally means occupation by ground forces.

What I'm doing is being accurate, and now you're getting defensive and using pejoratives because you were caught using the same inaccurate and hyperbolic rhetoric as the media you criticize.

[u/United-Salamander-89 → u/Apple-Dust]

There were zero consequences that held any merit and convinced them they couldn't or shouldn't do this again. Is that somehow better? He literally mocked people that were concerned about it. Then they did it again but much worse. Yeah, some tough consequences those were. I'd love to hear your opinions about aiding Ukraine today since it was such a no-go to do anything about it back then when it counted. As for the "invasion" shit, none of that has stopped your entire side of the aisle from calling our current debacle anything BUT an air campaign. You apply different rules to different presidents. Not sure how that's "being accurate". That's just being intentionally obtuse because it helps you meat ride obama. Do you, buddy. Just throwing out some skepticism. Honestly considering the whole benghazi shit, claiming boots never went to libya is wildly irresponsible anyways so i think imma bow out. 

[u/Apple-Dust → u/United-Salamander-89]

There were zero consequences that held any merit and convinced them they couldn't or shouldn't do this again. Is that somehow better?

Yes, it is better because it's somewhat more accurate. And as you can see from the fact that Russia committed to a full scale invasion less than a decade later, nothing short of a guaranteed military intervention could have dissuaded them. So not bombing Russia is "letting them have it"? Is that what you think we should have done or do you have some other idea that would have stopped them?

 I'd love to hear your opinions about aiding Ukraine today since it was such a no-go to do anything about it back then when it counted.

Oh absolutely! The military aid was a great idea, starting from when it was approved by congress during Trump's term, except that he then withheld it to try to extort Zelensky into sliming his opponent, leading to his first impeachment.

It was drastically ramped by the Biden admin after the full-scale invasion and proved to be the one thing the US did that had a decisive impact on helping Ukraine defend itself and regain territory. It was then ended by Trump and his party after he began his second term. Are you going to blame him for letting Russia have the entirety of Ukraine if Ukraine ends up losing the war?

As for the "invasion" shit, none of that has stopped your entire side of the aisle from calling our current debacle anything BUT an air campaign.  You apply different rules to different presidents.

What in the name of strawman are you talking about? My side won't call the Iran war anything but an air campaign? I seriously can't even make sense of what your point is supposed to be.

Honestly considering the whole benghazi shit, claiming boots never went to libya is wildly irresponsible anyways so i think imma bow out. 

That was a diplomatic consulate, and the attack on it occurred after the war was over. You don't understand that and you want to talk about "wildly irresponsible" claims?

[u/United-Salamander-89 → u/Apple-Dust]

After the war? Buddy we were involved in libya until 2019. For your math, thats 8 years post-gaddafi that supposedly nothing else happened lol. This is what i mean when i say intentionally obtuse. You're arguing semantics and doing everything you can to turn this into a trump conversation. If Obama would have taken strides to show russia they will not be allowed to do what they inevitably did, they wouldn't have come back. End of story. Whatever else you have is just going to be mindless cope. Enjoy your day. 

[u/Apple-Dust → u/United-Salamander-89]

what i mean when i say intentionally obtuse

??? You bring up a consulate attack as a goal-post-shifted proof of an "invasion" and tell me I'm being obtuse when I point out that it isn't? The war both of us were clearly referring to was the rebels against Ghaddafi's government, i.e. the air campaign the US was directly involved in. That happened in 2011.

The Benghazi attack occurred in 2012.

The civil war between the factions started in 2014.

So yes, the Benghazi attack happened AFTER the war we were both referring to, in the interim period. There was no Libyan civil war going on when the attack happened so stop playing dumb.

But OK, let's nail this down so there's no more ambiguity - tell me exactly when and how Obama invaded Libya.

Also, interesting that you didn't answer what you would have done to prevent Russia from taking Crimea and what you think of Trump and the GOP cutting Ukraine's aid.

[u/United-Salamander-89 → u/Apple-Dust]

I'm not interested in talking about trump lmao. That's why i ignored all that shit. I would definitely say taking 18 different countries into a sovereign state is an invasion. Idk if that meets whatever very specific dictionary definition you're pulling from. And hand waving it away saying ohhh well it was just an air campaign (That left behind a failed state and let ISIS turn into what they became) is ridiculously obtuse yeah, which is exactly what the obama admin tried to do back then that seems to have worker wonders. In comparison to whatever the hell we are doing in iran I'd definitely call that one an invasion. Personally i don't buy the whole "urr its not an invasion" from any president. That's a cop out. What the fuck is an invasion if taking a team made of 18 countries led by NATO into a sovereign nation ISN'T one. Idk. As far as russia goes, if we or even better if NATO had done literallly any physical thing, it would have been better than their little piece paperwork they filed that clearly didn't keep them from invading Ukraine again. Maybe a "hey Ukraine here's a big ass brand new missile, 40 years newer than what russia has" just to at least put off the appearance that they wouldn't let a land grab at their doorstep slide, i think it would have made a difference. Putin knows NOW that someone will step in and he seems to regret ever getting involved. Be nice if he knew that back then🤷🏽‍♂️ call me crazy, they could have done more. 

[u/Apple-Dust → u/United-Salamander-89]

I'm not interested in talking about trump lmao. 

Yet this is the comment you replied to:

Every aspect of the Obama presidency feels like a lost golden age compared to where we are now.    The worst day under Obama was better than the best day under Trump.

This conversation is entirely about Obama vs Trump so stop pretending like it isn't just because Trump's side of the equation is indefensible.

What the fuck is an invasion if taking a team made of 18 countries led by NATO into a sovereign nation ISN'T one

What team? Why were they there? Stop being vague and using weasel words and tell me exactly what operation you're referring to that qualified as an invasion.

hey Ukraine here's a big ass brand new missile, 40 years newer than what russia has

I'm unaware of the "big ass missile" weapon system, tell me specifically which weapons, in which quantity you think should have been given to Ukraine during what time period.

[u/United-Salamander-89 → u/Apple-Dust]

Okay you're just being annoying asf now lol. From the sounds of things, we agree on a lot of this stuff. I'm not playing your weird game here though. You asked me questions, i answered them. You want me to try and defend DJT, I'm good on all that. I just think this weird blind praise of Obama reeks of revisionism. Good guy, decent president. But to pretend he was some squeaky clean "good guy" is retarded. He was the same as literally every president before him. People don't like to admit that though, i imagine because he was the first black president and therefore has to measure differently than all the old white guys.