Serious question: what is the conversation Jews from both sides are having with each other?

[u/TravellingBeard]

For non-Jews like me, we are obviously not privy to the nuances of discussions occurring on your end. Is any serious dialog happening and swaying pro-zionist beliefs away from years of programming?

[u/AutoModerator]

Hi everyone,

'Discussion' posts require users to choose an appropriate flair in order to participate. Here's how you can pick a flair:

https://imgur.com/a/8kxYf7E

https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair

Please remember the human & be courteous to others. Thanks!

---

Gaza is starving.

The UN has declared that every part of Gaza is in famine conditions. While some aid is finally trickling in, the need is beyond urgent. Aid organizations will not be able to keep pace with Gaza's needs without our support.

Please donate if you’re able, and keep speaking up. Every dollar, share, and conversation matters. Please pressure your government to stop the blockade of humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Donate here to The Palestinian Red Crescent and UNICEF for Gaza's Children. Contact your representatives to stop the blockade in Gaza, find U.S. representatives here, and EU reps here. If you would like other subreddits to carry this message, please send the mods to r/RedditForHumanity.

---

Archived links	Video links (if applicable)
Wayback Machine	RedditSave
Archive.is	SaveMP4
12ft.io	SaveRedd.it
Ghostarchive.org	Viddit.red

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Willing-Childhood144]

In my experience, no, there aren’t many conversations happening between both sides. In mainstream Jewish American spaces, generally speaking, the left most opinion allowed is J Street. I actually suspect that some Jews don’t believe there are any “real” Jews to the left of J Street.

All of the major denominations are officially Zionist so generally, non-Zionists aren’t allowed to speak.

In my observation, people are putting their heads in the sand, ignoring the facts that they don’t like.

I’ve heard people suggest official discussions but nothing ever seems to come of it. Synagogues are terrified of offending anyone.

[u/CharlotteAria → u/Willing-Childhood144]

There's one (1) explicitly antizionist Synagogue. There are a fair amount of antizionist rabbis and scholars. But generally speaking, religiously inclined left-leaning antizionists are hard pressed to find a community and usually move to major cities to find them. I've helped star an antizionist havurah in my city (or at least, am a founding member). For nearly a decade I wanted to go to rabbinical school to offer pastoral services and advice to antizionist Jews, but a lot of the racist pushback and rejection I got following 10/7 dissuaded me from that dream.

[u/rako17 → u/CharlotteAria]

Friend Charlotte,

One weekend morning at a Pal Solidarity conference there was a havurah planned. I so much wanted to go.... .... but I failed to peel myself out of bed in the morning to make the journey in time. I regretted it ever since. Since I'm Christian and pro-peace in spirit, those kinds of pro-peace services aimed at ending the IP conflict have been those from the rabbinical community that have made me feel the most connected.

תודה לך על מה שאתה עושה.

[u/Enough_Comparison816 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

One of my local synagogues held a series of official dialogue discussions. They were beyond frustrating, there are so many layers of propaganda and conditioning to fight through. I predict that as time goes on, there will continue to be a handful of liberal Zionists who come to completely denounce Zionism. But the vast majority of the Jewish community is going to continue to find itself at odds with how the majority of humanity feels. Perhaps the shame and disgrace that comes with that predicament will force many Jews to change.

[u/OliveNo6451]

Sadly, I don't think it's good. At least not in my experience. The people who are still Zionist after all that we witnessed the last 3 years are racist supremacists.. maybe that sounds harsh and hopeless but I don't exactly mean it like that. It's not that I don't think they could ever potentially change, I just think they don't want to right now and the road to them changing will be a really long one. I'll tell you about some of the ways my convos are going with them though

All Zionists are right wing, but some consider themselves liberal or leftist. I'll share some of my experiences with the range.

1. A right wing former roommate accused me of like SA against Jewish women when I posted "all eyes on Rafah". She and I chatted for about 30 min or so over messenger.. ultimately I tried to be very level headed in my discussion with her and it ended with her saying to me "well you just seemed upset so I wanted to see if you're ok". She never acknowledged anything we talked about or my ideas as legit
2. My sibling and their spouse are both Zionists who consider themselves to be liberals.. I guess they are but quite honestly they are pretty right wing. A lot of their rhetoric is around how "dumb and hypocritical" leftists are, how "everywhere in the world is bad, everything is bad" so I guess.. don't look at Israel? And whenever I push back against it they accuse me of being angry and emotionally intense and "scary". It's possible I'm behaving like that, but I don't believe I am and I do think it's a tactic to get me to shut up.

They have also told me how the people in the settlements are Ethiopian Jews and poor, so it's really rude of leftists to want those people expelled and demonized.. though they concede their are awful extremists ones too.

They openly admit to demographic concerns if Palestinians returned or were included in the state and say "why can't Egypt take them".

They are racist, they don't see Palestinians as people.

1. I've had convos with liberal Zionists from college who are involved I Jstreet. Unlike my sibs, I would actually consider these people to be liberals... they are "against" the settlements. They admit aipac is kind of bad, though they dislike language about these things. I actually thought perhaps these people were open to changing but just maybe misunderstood the history of Israel, thinking it went wrong somewhere rather than a fundamental foundational problem with Zionism. But when I inform and engage, they always end up admitting they don't want Israel to stop being a Jewish majority state. It's fantasy land. And they are racist.

2. The Antizionist Zionist. This is actually a lot of Jewish people right now.. there's still Zionist thinking patterns even though they've abandoned Israel and don't consider themselves Zionist. They still center Jewish feelings and demand the same of others. I was like this for the first year post October 7th. Keep at them, and some of them will eventually change! Others I think will go back to Zionism or decide to disengage, sadly.

I keep engaging where I'm allowed to (as in the person hasn't asked me to stop speaking to them all together or end the convo) because I do believe seeds of doubt are planted and overtime, some will change. I do think it matters and helps, and for people with any fraction of a conscience, they can't ignore it forever.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/OliveNo6451]

WRT centering Jewish feelings - that is a huge problem and it’s one of the ways the dialogue is shut down. A perfect example of this is how many of the people on the Jewish Leftist sub were more concerned about the title of the recent book about the Israel lobby than the actual issue. That still really irritates me.

[u/TrackerOneA → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Ya, most rJewishLeft users in that thread were only concerned about the title of a book by two Jewish authors who are progressive-left and completely uncontroversial.

Only 2 people asked questions for the AMA.

The majority over there seem intellectually un-curious and uninterested in this issue - except to wield accusations of antisemitism against critics of Israel.

[u/stefasaurus-rex → u/OliveNo6451]

Thank you for articulating this and forming some archetypes

[u/MarshallDavoutsSlut]

The type of conversation that can end lifelong friendships and relationships.

They won't hear me. They have been telling me to shut up since 1998. And since the genocide unfolded and they denied and justified and lied and tantrummed I've come to properly hate them too.

So no conversation at all unless I'm prepared to never speak to that person again. Plus my parents crying begged me not to bring it up to anyone. (I'm 43).

I left the community and I'll never bother trying to persuade those nazis of anything again.

[u/rako17 → u/MarshallDavoutsSlut]

Friend Marshall,

I can relate. I had a friend with health problems and they started reading Breitbart News. Breitbart said that he made B.N. because he perceived corporate news as opposed to the state. However, de facto B.N. just focused on anti-immigrant, anti-liberal news, skipping the IP topic. Naturally you can guess that this was because BN's purpose was to build up a right wing base that would end up supporting the state's geopolitical alignment. The result was that anti-immigrant news and right wing politics became one the topics that the my friend focused on.  I ended up having arguments with my friend that I wish I could have softballed or avoided. But it was a bad situation because naturally as a Progressive, you feel like engaging as a member of society.

Wishing you and everyone the best as always.

[u/jerquee]

I'm not saying they all deserve the effort, as it's their responsibility to know better. But if you decide to expend the effort on someone who might reform themselves, your intro might start like this: My first priority is not to upset you, and I apologize if I'm doing that. It may be that we can't have this conversation and I can accept that. My hope was that in discussing it, perhaps by you clarifying your perspective and me responding with information you might not have, you might re-evaluate. It's also possible that you could give me information or perspective that I haven't heard of before and change my mind. But I accept that you might prefer not to talk about it. If that's the case, I hope you'll take some time to think about the situations where a person might hold a belief that they don't want to defend.

[u/DorkasaurusRexx]

"We should decry those people in Israel speaking in our name who are talking and acting like literal fucking demons and engendering the biggest surge on anti-Semitism in our lifetime. Also... We should kill less kids and... If what you're asking us to support is so great and so self-evidently correct... We shouldn't need to completely repress normal people's freedom of speech in order to protect it."

"🤬🤬🤬 Self hating Jew antisemite Kapo!!!!"

[u/rako17 → u/DorkasaurusRexx]

Friend Dorkasaurus,

I know from other messages that you are such a good, fun person. You mentioned getting yelled at for 8 hours? Man, that is so much.

I wish I could dis-spell the issues that you and some other Reddit members are dealing with, like peripheral feelings or discussions of being outsiders to America. My Quaker ancestors were pacifists who participated in founding one of the US colonies. They teach that everyone of every religion has the Lord's light. Being Pacifists, they tried to avoid fighting with the Natives. They were around at the country's founding. One of the founding colonies was Roman Catholic, so the US can't be considered a formally Protestant state. One of the key founding principles is religious freedom, like in the 1st amendment. You and practically every other US citizen in this Subreddit are as much fully legally equal citizens of the US, as I am, and I want you to feel and be treated as one, friend. That is how I want it to be. I wish I could just make all mistreatments and discriminations in the world go away.

[u/Bayked510]

My Reform synagogue had an adult ed class which was a space for dialogue around these issues this spring. I was pleasantly surprised when in hand raising polls, not one person believed self defense justifies Israel's military actions, and about half raised there hand to give all Palestinians a vote, even if that means the end of the Jewish state. I know some of the most outspoken right wing members weren't there, but I was still very encouraged. To me, it shows real movement has happened under the surface. The less zionist voices were almost all millenials and gen z however, while the boomers and gen x are most of the big donors and people running the synagogue.

[u/No_Pumpkin2628]

I married into a Jewish family and have watched my wife, who was anti zionist when we met, change her brother & sisters minds over the course of our relationship. She and her brother have really been working on their mom especially since Oct 7. It's this really weird thing where she reluctantly agrees with pretty much every point they make but just hasn't quite come around entirely.

The other side of it though is, much like my own maga/non-maga family split, the hardcore zionists in her extended family basically want nothing to do with us, despite never having talked about this with them and previously having a really friendly relationship.

[u/gluckspilze]

It’s happening both at the family level and the institutional and communal level. It’s also swaying beliefs. That’s a huge achievement but also never feels enough, always feels like so much energy to shift the needle a little. It’s not all as direct as debating “Zionism- is it good or bad?”. Sometimes to open up discussion at all requires a more tangential approach of getting people talking and hearing each other about adjacent topics, like antisemitism.

An example of good work - https://actionnetwork.org/events/community-conversations-dismantling-antisemitism-building-shared-safety/

[u/MarshallDavoutsSlut → u/gluckspilze]

Focusing on antisemitism is just so unhelpful. Mainly because it doesn't exist outside of isolated incidents of name calling.

Just feels like super liberal flavoured hasbora to me. They are using the right words but the message is wishy washy. If I'm wrong I do apologise.

I

[u/rako17 → u/gluckspilze]

Friend Gluckspilze,

I don't have an easy answer about how to deal with the threat and fear of intolerance. I'm in a bit of a different position because I'm not Jewish. That carries the risk that people could see me as biased, but I think it could have the advantage that by showing people goodwill, they could see that benevolence in me and in other non-Jewish Americans. At least, I have that hope. I also have the fear that by engaging in the conversation I could at some point say the wrong thing.

I come at the issue from an anti-racist, egalitarian, internationalist Left standpoint. I appreciate that you try to take the opportunities that you come across to promote pro-peace conversations that foster interfaith, intercultural understanding.

The reason why I am interested in the IP conflict is because I am American, and the US is a co-partner in what happens there, so I feel responsible. Plus, I'm anti-imperialist, pro-peace, and Progressive, antisemitism isn't a motivator for me, because I reject racist theories and oppose hatred. 

Based on my own experience and my years of reading Progressive writers on the IP topic, I believe that the same positive factors that motivate me also motivate the US antiwar Left broadly on the topic. That is, the pro-peace US Left is basically motivated by its Pro-Peace Conscience. I say "Conscience" because it's one's Conscience that motivates citizens of the world's independent, top Superpower to reject imperialist conflicts like the IP one.

I listened to two rather similar hour-long lectures recently on antisemitism. One was by an AJC staffperson. I liked the presenters as people and their talks were informative. What could have been discussed in those lectures in more detail is how one could discuss the IP Conflict critically without risking getting into the area of intolerance. One presenter said that he personally disagrees with Netanyahu's government, but that he asks if critics also criticize other governments like Sudan's. Following that logic, if one entered into discussions by criticizing other governments, it could help to avoid perceptions of intolerance.

מי ייתן והאל העליון יעזור וידריך אותך במסע חייך היפה.

[u/throwaway_99994]

I try to bring it up with different parts of my family and friend group, I’ve been successful with my sibling and mother in showing them the light. It’s a slog with everyone else and very hard to communicate with them. What Israel is doing to Palestine is the greatest ironic tragedy of modern history

[u/AutoModerator → u/throwaway_99994]

Hi /u/throwaway_99994!

We require all users pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate in posts. Here's how you can pick a flair:

https://imgur.com/a/8kxYf7E

https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair

Thank you!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/EgoIdVeto]

I'm in a Facebook group specifically designed for zionists to ask questions of anti-zionist Jews. In my interactions with these people (and people in my family),  there are three kinds of conversations I am seeing existing:

Number 1 is who I have dubbed the Bomb-Signing Psychopath

The dyed-in-the-wool zionists have been both verbally and physically abusing the anti-zionist Jews, often ostracising us and accusing us of faking our Jewish "blood" (yikes). There is overt antisemitic language being used, with slurs like "kapo" or "judenrat" being thrown around, and often holocaust denialism (e.g. claiming that holocaust descendants' ancestors must have lied about being holocaust survivors). 

These hardliners have very well-rehearsed lines which they refuse to deviate from and it's like having a conversation with a badly scripted video game NPC. They are often very condescending, and relish their position of power, and act very much like nazis, in that they taunt anti-zionists and enjoy the emotional impact their cruel words have on their targets, be they Palestinian or Jewish.

They often also like to taunt us by pretending to be peaceniks or feminists and trying to weaponise leftist talking points in deliberate parody of their actual meanings.

The reason I compare them to nazis is because they very often argue in the same way Sartre described antisemites as arguing:

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

These people are beyond saving, just as their nazi predecessors were before them. They are unfortunately the majority of interactions I have with zionists. 

Number 2 is the Zone of Interest:

Someone who just doesn't want to know. You can tell them all the truth you want but they will simply hold up their hand and ask you to please respect their wishes not to have their minds changed on the matter. They will demand to agree to disagree, and be allowed to keep their own completely wrong "opinions", with the notion that as long as they're polite about it and maintain plausible deniability, they can be as nazi-esque on the inside as they like.

They put up a polite façade, but push them too hard and they'll turn into #1. 

Number 3 is the only group whom I've ever had any success changing the minds of. I don't have a cute nickname for them but they remind me of a scared child who's just right now learning about the real world and is absolutely petrified. 

They've been fully drenched in zionist disinformation for their entire lives, and the last time they were free from that poison was when they were a child, before their indoctrination. As such, when their values begin to clash with their zionism (usually someone they hold dear is harmed by it), they may start to dismantle it or shed a few layers, and this will cause immense fear and confusion, often leading to them lashing out and rubber-banding back to previously held zionist beliefs for a period of time.

They need to be gently coaxed out of zionism by showing how much it has harmed someone they hold dear. Before people get mad, yes, I know it's selfish. But people need to understand that it is immature. They have lived their entire adult life as a zionist so when that is ripped away, what they have left is basically an immature, scared child who needs to re-learn how the world works again. These people may become activists, but usually they will take a long time to recover from their whole world crashing down around them, because zionism has been installed as an incredibly flimsy but load-bearing aspect of their psyche and identity. 

There's an entire generation of Jews who have been mentally crippled by zionism or turned into full blown nazis, and it's gonna take an entire new generation of Jews who grew up without it for Jewish culture to be de-zionised and de-nazified. 

[u/otterbox313]

How do you have a conversation with someone that calls you antisemitic when you're Jewish...? And you're defending Palestinians who are also SEMITIC. I've been called Judenrat so many times by Zionists that I might get it tattooed on my chest.

[u/rako17 → u/otterbox313]

Friend Otterbox,

Try to be nice to them first of all and make it clear that you have good will. Depending on the circumstance, perhaps you don't have the strength or skill yourself to turn them to ways of forgiveness and feelings of love for all humanity. I have had challenges and failings myself in all of these areas. One thing that I can say regardless of numbers or percentages is that even small percentages of your numbers show how special you are for being someone of Conscience in difficult times.

מי ייתן והאל העליון יברך וישמור אותך לעד.

🕊️

[u/jonawesome]

Once a year or so my mom and I are brave enough to broach the subject, we argue until we're both upset at each other, and then we agree to not talk about it for several more months.

That's the best I've got for actually talking to Zionist Jews about the issues. I've got non-Zio friends and we chat but, for instance, when I go to the Jewish Community Center I'm a member of to use the gym, I sorta walk past the big Israeli flags without saying anything. Cowardice, I guess.

[u/SirSweatALot_5 → u/jonawesome]

I would not call that cowardice. Gotta pick your battles… and conserve your energy.

[u/TreeCitizen]

My grandma wouldn’t change her mind for anything. She is proud of Jews, being a holocaust survivor, she thinks Israel is the most moral place on earth and the Muslims did this to themselves.

[u/Willing-Childhood144]

I know I’ve written this here before but one thing I’ve noticed in the last year is that people hardly discuss IP at all any,ore. After October 7, people were sharing posts on Facebook. My theory is that thinking about it is too unpleasant so they just don’t. There are plenty of terrible things happening in the US to distract everyone.

I see this as a positive step.

[u/Organic_Credit_8788]

every time my mom (zionist) brings up israel i threaten to leave the room until she stops

[u/AutoModerator → u/Organic_Credit_8788]

Hi /u/Organic_Credit_8788!

We require all users pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate in posts. Here's how you can pick a flair:

https://imgur.com/a/8kxYf7E

https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair

Thank you!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/KittiesLove1]

No, there is no discussion. I am immidiately banned from all jewish/israeli spaces on line, and in real life I don't speak up because I don't want to get bitten up or get in trouble with the state.

[u/GoArgueWithYourself → u/KittiesLove1]

That bird has flown.

I have American-born relatives who chose to live as settlers. After 6 years, I thought their complaints upon moving back would be having their eyes opened to what it was.

Their biggest complaint was that they didn't have bathtubs or they'd have stayed.

Getting my mom with the program was a massive accomplishment enough.

These people got 20 years of good faith out of me. If they're just happy because it's their turn to hold the whip, and the decimation of a minoritized people, much like themselves, and the destruction of universities, hospitals, museums, homes, lives, doesn't change their hearts nor minds, even gives them a sick pleasure, that's for them to live with.

[u/conscience_journey]

In my experience the effort is best spent on the many Jews who may be passive Zionists but are now waffling due to the greater visibility of Israel’s atrocities. Committed Zionists are very unlikely to shift. In my personal life, most of the committed Zionists have been too cowardly to talk to me, probably because they have been so used to not having their views challenged and know they can’t justify them.

[u/Choice-Koala-3653]

I'm an atheist, but I had some neighbors who were Jewish who refused to recognize the secular state of Israel because their Messiah hadn't arrived yet. But when the Messiah came they were ready to move there. They were ultra-Orthodox types, very religious, but I found them to be great neighbors. It was my first encounter with anti-Zionist Judaism, and I can't recall meeting any others since then who held that belief. I have far more communication with reform and secular Jews, all of whom support Israel but not the war or the current Netanyahu regime.

[u/rako17]

Dear Travelling Beard,

Thank you for being pro-peace. Since you are an Atheist, I want to give you insight into the kind of dialogue that you are talking about. Sam Harris is a famous Atheist who takes a rather one-sided establishment stance on the IP Conflict.

It's hard to find videos where he actually debates on the issue. He had something of a brief debate with Piers Morgan, who took a more well rounded, pro-peace attitude. You can watch it here:

Piers Morgan vs. Sam Harris https://youtu.be/nF6GKYZzS_Q?si=6-GAcfokx7XpBsj3

Kind Regards