Jamaati, AMA

[u/alone_redstone]

Working for & advising 3 parliamentary campaigns (Sunamganj-2, Sunamganj-5, Sylhet-1). Dad used to be the president of Sylhet Osmani Medical College Shibir and a member of BJI's Central Shura Council

Saw a former Shibir member do one of these, so I thought I'd do one too in case anyone has any genuine questions about current BJI-BICS politics

***I'm not a full member of Shibir since I don't study in a Bangladeshi educational institution, but I'm intimately familiar with their organisational structure and politics

[u/fogrampercot]

I am not going to give any more or less weight to an opinion supported by the majority of classical scholars. This is simply the majority fallacy. Galileo was punished because he discovered that the Earth revolved around the Sun; this ran counter to the Catholic Church's doctrine. In the early years of his prophethood, Muhammad was surrounded by idol worshippers and the majority ridiculed him. Shall we take the majority opinion there too?

How about something more specific? Surah Al-Kahf, verse 86, tells a story where Dhul-Qarnayn reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of murky water. Do you know how the early scholars interpreted it? For several hundred years, all classical scholars interpreted it literally and concluded there is a setting place of the sun on earth. So just because most classical scholars will say something does not mean it's right.

And I won't enter a theological debate with you as I believe faith is a personal matter. As long as it's not harming someone else, we should not bother with what someone else believes in. How does that make me selfish? For using the information we have at hand and taking the best decision based on it while keeping an open mind to grow and learn? I am not prioritizing my own needs over someone else and I have nothing to gain by doing this. Compare this with attempting to impose the rules you believe your faith commands (your unsubstantiated interpretation) onto others because you think (wishful thinking) it will be good for you and others. Just make an honest comparison between these two and think again which one is more selfish.

I want to end this particular argument with a story. Don't read if you don't want spoilers from one Black Mirror episode. There is an episode called Hang the DJ. Frank and Amy live under “Coach,” a system that assigns relationships to determine their perfect lifelong partner with 99.8% success rate, and they repeatedly find themselves drawn back to each other despite painful mismatches. As they begin to fall for each other more and more, they decide to reject the system's authority and escape together rather than obey their assigned futures. When they rebel, the world freezes and they break through its boundary, revealing their reality was a simulation designed to measure whether they would choose each other over the system’s rules. In most simulations, they did. In the real world, this defiance produces a 99.8% match, reframing faith not as obedience, but as the courage to resist a godlike authority.

In the real world, a dating app assigns Frank to Amy as a 99.8% match, revealing the entire story was a simulation and the true test being whether Frank and Amy would reject the system and fight against everything despite being promised the perfect partner, because you need to have the purest hearts and love for each other to do that.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing. Perhaps God exists, but the test is not what you think it is. Maybe there is no fixed test or path, but we shall be judged by our efforts and actions.

[u/alone_redstone → u/fogrampercot]

1) I was talking about what's representative of Islam and what isn't, not truth. A position being held by the consensus of scholars for 1400 years might or might not make it 'true' (that's a separate epistemological debate), but it objectively makes it representative of 'Mainstream Islam'.

The interpretation of Qiwamah is consistent across every major school, including Twelver and Zaydi Shi'is, etc. My point is that BJI's position simply reflects this consensus. If you consider this stance misogynistic, then that's fine; that's your prerogative, but it isn't a specific, unique critique of BJI. It is an inevitable entailment of BJI's adherence to normative mainstream Islam. And again, you can critique that, but it's not a separate criticism. BJI isn't Islamic (meaning it adheres to normative mainstream Islam) AND 'misogynistic'. It's just Islamic, which necessitates what you view as misogyny.

2) You advocate for what you believe will have the best outcome for the greatest number of people and also happens to be in your own ultimate self-interest (material progress is certainly not against your own self interest, is it?). I do the same. That's my point.

3) And thanks for the interesting thought experiment, but I'm certain in my beliefs and my axioms.

[u/fogrampercot → u/alone_redstone]

It is indeed the mainstream Islam. The point I tried to make is that just because it is mainstream, doesn't mean it's right. So your argument has no rational substantiation.

And I am not sure on what basis you are disregarding the arguments by modern scholars and reformists. I already showed you how that is highly irrational. By this logic, you also have to cling on the interpretation by all classical scholars who believed the sun had a setting place in the earth. This belief persisted several hundreds of years after Muhammad's death. As we know now, this is obviously false. This is my entire core argument. That it is dangerous and foolish to disregard the information we have and trust something blindly just because it is interpreted as such by a group of people.

And again, this justification to put women under men and treat them as inferior human beings is plain and simple misogyny. You can play around with words as much as you can, but does it take away the fact that it's textbook misogyny? Any rational or acceptable justifications for it apart from religious interpretations? You can say it's Islamic since this is still mainstream, and I would agree. But it's still Islamic AND misogynistic. This is why I also emphasize and encourage Muslims to reform the mainstream interpretations of the religion.

I don't care why/how BJI believes in what it believes. Surely not all Islamic parties or Muslims thinks this way. At the end of the day, BJI believes in misogyny. Plain and simple. So far, you have only confirmed what I said. And just tried to get around it by saying it's Islamic without any rational justification.

As for material progress not being against my own self interest, there is a big difference. Sure, everyone wants to look after themselves. But I am not actively advocating for policies to oppress others or treat them as second class citizens. I am not trying to achieve my own happiness at the cost of others. We all believe and preach for what we believe is the best, but I am not disregarding critical thinking and attempting to impose my interpretation of the faith which goes against universally accepted human rights in the hopes that it will increase the odds of me going to heaven in the afterlife. There is a big difference and it's not at all a fair comparison.

I know, it's an interesting thought experiment. I wouldn't expect you to change your beliefs just after hearing a story. The point I am trying to make is that an argument from faith is very weak and can also be turned the other way around very easily.

The way I see it, your entire argument lies around - "Trust me bro, or trust my faith bro".